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2 Things I Can't Work Out How To Do?


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#1 Dave Wizard

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 02:18 PM

Hi guys.

I made 6 tracks which I grouped into a drum track.
I then added sends to each track.
I wanted to put the returns inside the group so I could keep things together but Renoise won't allow me to.
When I turn the volume of the group track down the signal from the group sends doesn't fall.
I can set the sound level to zero and I can still hear the sound from the fx channels?
This doesn't happen with normal tracks. Is there a setting I have to change?

I have a Novation 49SL I use to play notes in.
If I play from bottom C when I get up to the third B instead of playing it instead solos track 1
I'm thinking that the note is triggering the solo but I can't figure out why?

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks dave
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#2 2 daze j

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 03:40 PM

I made 6 tracks which I grouped into a drum track.
I then added sends to each track.


You got that right, that is sorted.



I wanted to put the returns inside the group so I could keep things together but Renoise won't allow me to.


This is where it gets complicated, but basically you are adding a useless step. You've got your drum send, and your drum group. Basically how it works is this: Say you put reverb on a send, you turn up your return, and you get reverb on your track. When you are mixing drums, you are throwing them into a group, probably to get filtered, or compressed together.. The return is kinda assumed in the volume. But each of these daws, have their own little quirks, and I don't know if I just gave you the best answer

**someone chime in, if they have a better answer.

Meanwhile, you are adding an extra step in your mind, that has no basis in the reality of how to build a mix.



When I turn the volume of the group track down the signal from the group sends doesn't fall. I can set the sound level to zero and I can still hear the sound from the fx channels? This doesn't happen with normal tracks. Is there a setting I have to change?


This is all in the (keep source/mute source) And if explained really well in the manual. http://tutorials.ren....com/wiki/Mixer



I have a Novation 49SL I use to play notes in.
If I play from bottom C when I get up to the third B instead of playing it instead solos track 1
I'm thinking that the note is triggering the solo but I can't figure out why?


Below is just a guess! I have no perfect answer here, but giving it a shot.


Did you turn on midi learn by accident? A midi message is probably triggering that action. Happens in one project? Or all projects? I would try and clear all midi learn, and maybe check your preferences.

Edited by 2 daze j, 03 May 2012 - 02:18 AM.

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#3 Suva

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 03:58 PM

Grouping tracks already does the routing: all signal from grouped tracks goes into the group track.

You need send devices only if you want the signal to go to one of the send channels, which appear in mixer after the master track.
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#4 Dave Wizard

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 07:27 PM

Grouping tracks already does the routing: all signal from grouped tracks goes into the group track.

You need send devices only if you want the signal to go to one of the send channels, which appear in mixer after the master track.


I understand that.
When you turn the level of the group down the sends from within that group carry on sending at whatever they were set at.
The volume of the group goes down but the level from the send tracks remains constant.
Can't ride the faders as other tracks may also be feeding this send.
Not a problem in Tracktion or Live 8

The problem with the novation muting tracks was a misplaced command but no idea how it came to be there as I don't like using piano keys for controlling stuff. Thanks for that daze.
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#5 dblue

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 08:03 PM

I made 6 tracks which I grouped into a drum track.
I then added sends to each track.
I wanted to put the returns inside the group

Renoise does not have the concept of a "return". All audio routing is currently a one-way process.

If you add a Send Device to a Track DSP Chain, the audio signal gets routed from that particular point in the DSP Chain over into the Send Track, and then the audio signal gets processed by the Send Track, but the processed/effected audio signal never actually returns to the original track. It's one-way only. Therefore, once an audio signal reaches a Send Track, the only place it can go is to another Send Track for additional processing, or directly to the Master track for final processing. This is why the group's mixer level no longer has any effect over the tracks contained within it - because each of those tracks has been physically routed outside of the group itself.

The only variation to this rule is when the Send Device has the "Keep Source" option enabled. In this situation, the audio will be routed into the Send Track, but the unprocessed (unprocessed by the Send Track, I mean) signal will also continue through the remainder of the original track's DSP Chain for any additional processing there. This can be useful in situations where you intentionally want to "double up" the signal and mix a processed version back in with the original version, as with "New York" style compression, for example. Nevertheless, even when "Keep Source" is enabled, this is still not a true return behaviour.

As far as possible solutions go, it really depends on your particular set-up. If all of your 6 tracks are being routed into the same Send Track, then you can simply remove the 6 individual Send Devices from the tracks and place a single Send Device on the group instead. This should allow you to easily control the overall mix level of the group from a single fader.
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#6 Cas

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 08:31 PM

This can be useful in situations where you intentionally want to "double up" the signal and mix a processed version back in with the original version, ...

like, having control over the dry/wet signals of a scream filter for instance

As far as possible solutions go, it really depends on your particular set-up. If all of your 6 tracks are being routed into the same Send Track, then you can simply remove the 6 individual Send Devices from the tracks and place a single Send Device on the group instead. This should allow you to easily control the overall mix level of the group from a single fader.

this is simplest solution if i'm not mistaken.
If the TS meant he wanted to send the kickdrum to a different reverb than the snaredrum, then you've got a different problem. You'll want to have an extra send track where all the drum sounds go eventually just before going to the master track. this is then some kind of "return" track, but it's hard to comprehend in the beginning, and understand renoise's "cascading" routing style. It took me about 4 months or so until I mastered the annoying things of it. (trying to hear only the output of a send track for instance is really time consuming if there's 3 instr tracks and 8 send tracks routing to it with "keep source" on)
I think someone (ok i'll do it) should do a tutorial about this, 'advanced routing'.
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#7 vV

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 08:53 PM

You may want to try Senderella as an alternative send device if you need feedbacks.
The only thing is that the audio will be delayed for one cycle until renoise reaches that particular track to process again. If you can live with that limitation...
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#8 2 daze j

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 10:29 PM

Send Devices from the tracks and place a single Send Device on the group instead. This should allow you to easily control the overall mix level of the group from a single fader.


I guess that's new with the group tracks.. lol. I should have caught that. That works out really well.

Edited by 2 daze j, 02 May 2012 - 10:42 PM.

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#9 flight

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 10:40 PM

perhaps this helps, check what state your mixer is in: pre or post

if its on post you will get that volume 'issue' you mention, if so, then set the volumes of the tracks in pre mode
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#10 Dave Wizard

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 01:47 AM

Renoise does not have the concept of a "return". All audio routing is currently a one-way process.


Ok now I know that I can work round it.

Easy answer is to link both the group track fade slider and the send track fade to the same slider on my mixer.
That way they work in sync.

I have to be honest it seems a bit backward but maybe it's something that may change in the future.
I'm sure I'm not the only one finds this strange as every other DAW I've worked on returns it's sends.
Is there a specific reason for doing it this way I can't yet see?

Thanks to all who took the time to help.

Dave
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#11 kickofighto

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 09:45 AM

Might be an idea to put a hydra on the group track to control if you want to control input to separate send chains/with different maxima and minima, from one fader.
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#12 fladd

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 10:46 AM

Unfortunately we cannot freely assign the fader in the mixer, so grouping group volume and send together would still be a suboptimal solution.

I personally still don't see why we cannot put sends within a group with the only limitation that, as soon as send is within a group, it only accepts input from tracks that are also in this group. Now also only allow the send to be the most right track in the group and it would not even break Renoise's left-to-right audio processing stream limitation.
So, yeah, I just don't get, why this is not allowed. Can anyone comment on this?
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