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Phrases. Selection thereof.


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#1 thalamus

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 22:09

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A brief synopsis:

Using keyzones to select Phrases is problematic for me (due to many of my Kontakt patches using all of the available 88 key range).
I suggested here that an alternative method of Phrase selection and application be made available via pattern commands.

In my view, not only would this provide a workaround for folks who find themselves very short of space to define keyzones within any given instruments, but would also provide a much more 'tracker centric' way of manipulating Phrases directly from the pattern data.
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Is it possible to select which phrase is to be played using a method other than key zoning?

Edited by thalamus, 15 January 2014 - 12:23.


#2 dblue

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 22:16

Nope. Keyzones are the only method.
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#3 thalamus

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 22:26

Nope. Keyzones are the only method.


I see. For me that's a shame as I'm working with Kontakt instruments that use much of the available key range. Any remaining space is left over to key switches for the patch.
Phrases would have been a lovely way to make ostinatos and have them transpose and vary in character.

Damn.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

#4 dblue

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 22:28

Well, nothing is absolutely set in stone here. I'm simply saying how it is currently. Share your thoughts and ideas of how you think it *could* work, if simple keyzones are not getting the job done for you. :]
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#5 thalamus

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 22:32

For me a simple pattern command to choose the Phrase number would be optimal.

It would also be very useful if the method of swapping were flexible, too. For example I might want to go immediately to Phrase 0E respecting the position in the currently playing Phrase. On the other hand I might want to have it play the next Phrase I select from the top, regardless. Or perhaps specify an arbitrary offset.

Further thinking on the general workflow here;
It would be nice to be taken directly to the Phrase referenced by the pattern command at the edit cursor with a shortcut.
Furthermore, the option to clone the Phrase, make changes and have that new Phrase inserted in the pattern at the edit point would be pretty fast!

Edited by thalamus, 26 December 2013 - 22:58.

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#6 Akiz

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 22:45

so command should say that you use pattern and note would define this pattern as note value would be baseless otherwise.

And this command should define how the pattern will be played as i "show" here.
http://forum.renoise...-phrase-editor/

#7 thalamus

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 22:47

so command should say that you use pattern and note would define this pattern as note value would be baseless otherwise.

And this command should define how the pattern will be played as i "show" here.
http://forum.renoise...-phrase-editor/


I imagine note would be the transposition value and the pattern command itself would select the Phrase.
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#8 vV

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 23:49

Well, nothing is absolutely set in stone here. I'm simply saying how it is currently. Share your thoughts and ideas of how you think it *could* work, if simple keyzones are not getting the job done for you. :]


Add velocity triggering into the phrase zone :)
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#9 thalamus

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 05:32

Add velocity triggering into the phrase zone :)/>/>/>/>


Actually the velocity (volume) aspect works fine now. Playing a Phrase first at full velocity, then at maybe 50% does scale all the contained note volumes nicely.
At least from my point of view it's the concept of zoning across the key range as the sole means of Phrase selection that presents the problem.

But what you suggest does also sound like an interesting dimension to Phrases. The possibility of altering the pattern data content of a Phrase, beyond its relative volumes, according to the trigger velocity would be superb, but in my view only as an optional dimension. The way it behaves currently is absolutely how I'd expect it to.

To be clear, the problem is that key zoning is the *only* means of selection. Of course there are many uses for it as it stands and I can understand why the devs went in this direction with phrase selection. But within the tracker environment I would have thought pattern commands were obvious candidates for a selection method.

Edited by thalamus, 27 December 2013 - 09:44.


#10 vV

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 13:59

The possibility of altering the pattern data content of a Phrase, beyond its relative volumes, according to the trigger velocity would be superb, but in my view only as an optional dimension. The way it behaves currently is absolutely how I'd expect it to.

That was the idea behind the suggestion.
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#11 Rxn

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 15:29

For me a simple pattern command to choose the Phrase number would be optimal.


This might be a better idea, as it would be immediately obvious that this particular instrument is playing a phrase.


Also, it would be cool if "ghosts" of the phrases were displayed, meaning when a phrase is selected in the pattern, the notes that it plays are visible and, let's say, semitransparent to distinguish them from regular notes.
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#12 thalamus

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 18:51

Also, it would be cool if "ghosts" of the phrases were displayed, meaning when a phrase is selected in the pattern, the notes that it plays are visible and, let's say, semitransparent to distinguish them from regular notes.


Aye. How would you imagine LPB discrepancy with the main pattern being resolved visually?

Edited by thalamus, 27 December 2013 - 18:52.


#13 Rxn

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 23:20

Aye. How would you imagine LPB discrepancy with the main pattern being resolved visually?


That is a damn good question to which I do not have an answer.

#14 thalamus

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 23:27

That is a damn good question to which I do not have an answer.

Food for thought.


Another aspect to all of this is that I imagine that the Phrase selection command might be able to apply Phrases not associated with the current instrument.
Currently, as I understand it, you add Phrases inside an instrument and those Phrases are only available to other instruments by saving them as a preset and then loading that preset into any further instruments you may wish to apply the Phrase to.
Phrases are bound to instruments, essentially, through the key zoning paradigm.

My suggestion that Phrases ought to be selectable and applicable via pattern commands could transcend the afore mentioned limitation, and simply apply a Phrase to the current instrument regardless of the Phrases binding elsewhere.
So looking at all currently loaded Phrases as a pool from which any can be freely chosen and applied.

That doesn't preclude the current regime of course, more adds to the flexibility by giving the user direct access to Phrase data, ignoring the current 'packaging' of Phrases within instruments.

Edited by thalamus, 27 December 2013 - 23:45.


#15 00.1

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 06:35

youtube: LSDJ Live Mode Tutorial by Defiant Systems

LSDJ's Live/Song Mode keeps pooping up in my mind.

I haven't used it in quite some time, really fun and great arranger/live tracker.

LSDJ's Command Tables and Phrases are similar too.


In LSDJ, I remember how I liked that I could organize Phrases in Hex,
I could organize it in 5's or odd, even, letters, etc.

Although I suppose if enough time is put in, Keys could be just as flexible.
You can organize Phrase in Octaves, White, and Black Keys.

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#16 Akiz

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 15:26

Great ideas fellas :yeah:

#17 thalamus

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 09:11

Great ideas fellas :yeah:/>


Quite aside from my specific problem with keyzoning, keeping controls pattern-command centric is in the spirit of tracking. It's what makes it powerful in the first place.
I understand that Redux is looking at a different slice of the market but I think both ideas could be served without compromising either.

#18 splattimer

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 22:19

Add velocity triggering into the phrase zone :)/>/>

I actually really like this idea. I was thinking earlier how phrases allow me to do some of the sorts of this that I could do with my old Korg KARMA. Having phrases selected by note-on, note-off, velocity, mod wheel etc could make them incredibly expressive! (Don't know how feasible it is though)

#19 Daed

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 22:25

...a simple pattern command to choose the Phrase number would be optimal.


This would be awesome.
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#20 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 23:01

I am also wondering if it wouldn't be nice to have an effect command that turns the phrase on/off ....
When of , it plays as a regular sample ..when on =phrase is activated .
To put it simple , automate the phrase ON/OFF button


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#21 thalamus

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 00:26

I am also wondering if it wouldn't be nice to have an effect command that turns the phrase on/off ....
When of , it plays as a regular sample ..when on =phrase is activated .
To put it simple , automate the phrase ON/OFF button


Yes that sounds good.

Edited by thalamus, 31 December 2013 - 00:55.

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#22 Din

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 19:59

I like the idea of an on/off button within the instrument. The addition of macros allows users to control the switch state from the pattern editor, although at the cost of tying up a macro just for that.

My idea is to add a phrase instrument (a Phrasertm) that uses its own keyzone mapping for playing phrases using any of the instruments. It would work pretty much like another instance of Renoise inside of the main instance, but it would reference the instrument list of its host. That would allow all normal instruments to keep full use of their entire keyzones, eliminate the need for an on/off switch for phrases, and give performers fewer phrase containers (instruments) to deal with when doing live gigs (a phraser set up for performance could have phrases for everything all mapped across a single keyzone).

The trick would be in handling recursion, i.e. a phraser referencing itself or another phraser within a phrase... :blink:

#23 jonah

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 21:25

i think i'd like it if the phrase editor looked (and operated) like the instrument selector, in the pattern editor window. like just a straight up list of phrases, then then you can click on it to set the key zone, etc.

this would make it easier to use a phrase select effect i think, because it'd be more clear the "number" of the phrase, regardless of the range it's keymapped to.
i mean, how else would you use phrase effects? i think it could get confusing if the lowest keymapped phrase was always phrase one.

maybe it could be a toggle with the samples list view in the instrument editor maybe? because do you need to see your list of samples and edit phrases at the same time? not sure. imo, right now the phrase edit button is in an awkward place. somewhere in that left hand box would be nice.

#24 thalamus

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 00:03

Now we're cooking!

Great ideas.

#25 thalamus

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 09:31

I hate to do the 'bump your own thread' thing, but this has slipped back into the mists of the forum now .. I wonder if anyone out there thinks it's a)viable and b)a good idea in the first place.

A show of hands, if you will.



For my workflow it's essential, but it might be that I'm missing a trick or that I am in some way mentally challenged ;)