I imagined it would end with the closure, however I take back my little space, in the correct section. I know that I was the one who triggered everything in some way and sorry, but I didn’t imagine the conversation would get this heated to this point. So here we don’t talk about that topic, about everything but that, so we avoid drama. Thank you. We talk about acid sounds, pianos, percussion, performances, sound design techniques, personal problems if you want lol, welcome to the therapy session. Ok, seriously, let’s avoid arguing over stupid things, missiles are flying in the sky, people are dying, and we want to massacre ourselves in the name of an alleged reason? It’s not a question to answer, we all know the answer. Think about having fun, however you want, as long as you have fun!
Even though you chose a provocative thread title like “Piano roll…Muahahahahua”, it wasn’t your fault. And tbh, I don’t understand why it was closed. There are always friction points in every discussion, which isn’t a problem in general. It just starts getting problematic if there are people who act like this:
Person A: Why is there no dancing spriite in Renoise?
Person B: Because it has no function and therefore it’s useless crap in terms of music creation.
Person A: Moooooooooommy, this bad person is insulting me as a person!
Person A: I demand a piano roll in a tracker, because I prefer piano roll over tracker editor.
Person B: But Renoise is a tracker, and a tracker has a different nature.
Person A: Limited minds! No arguments! The developers should go to hell!
Obviously even the Renoise forum has got a few “specialists” on board. So what are the consequences? Personally I will reduce my activity here. I don’t have questions how to handle Renoise, how to create music or how to mix. I also don’t want to change Renoise, I like it the way it is and I bought it JUST BECAUSE it is what it is. I also don’t face any bugs because I’ve got a proper system and I’m using Renoise as intended. So as far as I’m concerned there will be less talk and probably more music. So to say “back to the roots”. 
Ah, id be sad if you stopped sharing insights. Im only 40 years old, theres a lot i dont know, but what i do know (working in a service industry) is that overall peoples entitlement these days is outrageously high. Everybody expects what they want, when they want it and for free if possible. Its exhausting and to see people want to fundamentally change something i love and that works as is, is annoying sometimes. Passion and debate are essential.
@BriocheBaps
You hit the point. passion. This will probably be my last post here. I know that in a short time I have posted a lot of things (more than the average forum user does), I know that sometimes I can come across as a confusing, annoying, nagging person, I realize that someone might think: are you always here? Don’t you have a life out there? …yes, I have it (I’m replying to an answer that was sent yesterday, and then it was deleted, I don’t even remember who it was), and in my life I discovered this software that is trapping me so much , so I’m full of adrenaline with the desire to do a lot of things, for myself but also for the community (or at least that part of the community musically close to me) then I realize that more than half of the people in here don’t need that I do something for them and they might just see me as a source of stress, someone who talks too much… But I’m just full of passion and enthusiasm like a teenager… and surely some people annoy me at least as much as I annoy them, in that case it’s better to ignore each other than to provoke each other… anyway… I love Renoise, the only criticis I feel like making, with due respect to the developers, perhaps they could have created a little nicer instruments to deliver with the software… I personally threw them away, keeping only the Basics to build my own things…Even going so far as to replace the Basics (not because they can’t work, but because I found something better), in any case, I probably think this thing only because I’m used to that when I install a software to try it, I already have a nice set of instruments to start with (except Reaper but it has a thought of its own)…which in Renoise didn’t happen, because I browsed the instruments, but hey , other than the kick generator and some samples, I didn’t find anything (anything cool to use in a song). and this really slowed down my learning of Renoise, because before I understood how to create a song in Renoise, I had to understand how to create instruments… (maybe it’s just my problem, but I just can’t create a song with instruments that I don’t appreciate it, even if it must just be a test for the functionality of the software)…then several users have created some very nice or useful things, the ReGranulizer, the 200 breakbeats, that folder full of drums taken from the hardware (I loved the kit MPC 2000), but it seems to me that there are not so many active users in this regard…often someone just shares a little thing that he created for himself…
So I thought “I’ll do it”, since that’s what I’m focused on these days, creating instruments. Not because I’m particularly capable of creating cool things that will surprise you all… on the contrary, what I could create would be ignored by three quarters of the forum… but I know that it could be useful to someone, even just two people. Also, I’ve often read about “complaints” or something like that, that Renoise has incredible potential and the world out there can’t understand it, but has anyone ever wondered why? Why do Ableton Live, FL Studio, Pro Tools, Logic Pro etc… after 5 minutes of use people understand that they are valid products, and not with Renoise? Are they all stupid? I don’t believe and I don’t even believe that it’s exclusively about the tracker / piano roll issue. It’s just that other DAWs provide you with ready material (and beautiful… or perhaps just more conventional, therefore still considered beautiful by more people) to tell you " with this software you can create these things,” and when I heard the Renoise instruments, I thought “ah, can I only do this?” … I can actually do a lot more, but it took me a while to understand it, if they had given me different instruments maybe I would have understood it in three seconds… and maybe other people will find themselves in the same situation in the future. Most likely the other DAWs need to reach a greater number of people and do so by any means possible, while Renoise was designed for already capable people and to remain a niche product, that’s fine, there’s nothing wrong with it in this, but time passes… I mean, there are not only ultra-expert fifty-year-olds who use Renoise, even kids are approaching it… who are used to something else, have a different mentality, but I believe that they too have the right to try and maybe use Renoise, but I can almost guarantee you that almost everyone uninstalls Renoise after listening to the instruments, because obviously they are kids, they are inexperienced, they don’t know that those instruments don’t do justice to the possibilities offered by the software, for them that is a way of measuring the capabilities of the software but for Renoise it is an invalid method… and this makes me sad, because maybe they could fall in love with Renoise too, but instead it doesn’t happen… maybe no one gives a damn, but I do sorry, because I can put myself in their shoes and I think that if I were a kid who started making techno and discovered Renoise, I would like to have my beautiful “RN-303” (is almost ready) in the library, my beautiful “RN-909”, “RN-808” etc… I understand all the discussions already discussed about feature requests… but in this case it’s not about adding any features and it’s not about transforming the software in any way… it’s about spending a little ’ time to create some nice instruments to make the kid’s life easier… I wanted to do it, but I don’t know if I’ll do it anymore, I’ll probably just do it for myself, otherwise I’m always here stressing people out… I’ll follow the advice about that guy who deleted the answer, I’ll go for a walk and throw my enthusiasm in the bin leaving everything as it is and the kid will manage and use another DAW… I don’t know why in music themed communities I always perceive a certain amount of anti-sociality in it which conflicts with the concept of community…I can only find myself completely at ease in neurodivergent communities because there people have the same head problems as me, so we can understand each other. With that said, cheers, happy tracking… and let’s be clear (but it should be obvious) that my problem isn’t you two. @TNT
I understand your excitement and enthusiasm. Your post and thoughts remind me of my own thought processes. I am Neurodiverse, your post reminds me of how i think, dont stop posting. Share your enthusiasm and love for music. People like to argue online but ive appreciated some of your posts. Stay safe.
We used to have a download section where anyone could upload instruments and other resources, but they took it away from us and made the forum 90% less interesting…
I’m sorry to say , but imo the last migration to a new forum platform was the worst thing that ever happened to this community, everything became a lot worse in every way i’m afraid.
Are there anyone at all that thinks the forum is better the way it is now?
For a long time i hoped they would do like in the old forum, start to add more stuff and features along the way to make it more complete, hoped that soon we would get back our download section and such, but a long time has passed and absolutely nothing happened in this regard. 
This forum platform was supposed to be better for phones and tablets and such, but instad it’s way worse than it used to. I’m writing this on a tablet and i almost gave up, because it’s not even possible to scroll through my post while i’m writing it, it behaves buggy as fuck. 
PLEASE MAKE FORUM GREAT AGAIN! - vote for 
, 
and 
I don’t know what the forum was like before, when I joined it was already like this, so I can’t say anything about it… I can say that personally I don’t have big problems with the platform, neither on the computer nor on the phone… of course every now and then it has some strange “bugs” on the phone, but I don’t know how much is the fault of the forum and how much is the fault of the touchscreen, the forum could also be innocent… In any case I can use it. I have read several times about this download section which no longer exists, but I honestly don’t see what the problem is in recreating it in a topic… if I’m not mistaken there is even more than one, and this could perhaps be a “problem”, it’s certainly better to have just one page, but a little organization is enough… Just as the instruments were shared in that section that no longer exists, they can be shared here… right? I understand that perhaps you who have experienced the change feel a certain affection for the previous situation and this is what makes you hate the new situation… but things can still be done… The question is: how many people want to do it? ? Personally, I will spend the next few months creating instruments I would be happy if someone would like to combine ideas, give advice, whatever, and maybe together we can create many beautiful things for everyone (certainly more than what I could do alone). .otherwise I’ll build my own things, I’ll make my own music, you’ll make yours and everything will be as it’s always been.
That’s not my intention. I just won’t write that much anymore, especially not in threads that are about the future of Renoise. I know that Renoise keeps being Renoise, no matter what people are asking for.
Those who judge a DAW according to stock instruments should go and paint pictures instead. A DAW is just the tool you need to actually use and arrange any kind of instruments, no more and no less. And for several reasons the easiest way to learn how to create music is by using a tracker, that’s how I did it. The only reason why most people of today don’t know about trackers is that piano roll DAWs were kind of professional from the very beginning, whereas trackers were primarily used for small sample based tunes in low quality (any kind of chiptune and some breakbeat arrangements), and therefore piano roll DAWs became the industry standard.
Something like the discord of that piano roll NPC? And you can still share stuff if desired, right?
I respect and understand your point of view but I don’t agree, because we are talking about people who have yet to learn this thing. you know it, I know it, but were we born with this information? no, we learned it in one way or another… it’s as if a mathematics teacher were to say: “if you don’t know how to do addition, go study geography”… but if you don’t teach me addition … .so these people should not be taken for idiots and ignored / driven away by telling them that they should go and paint pictures. Certain things simply need to be explained to them, or given practical demonstrations (if they don’t figure it on their own). I myself judged a DAW by its stock instruments, today I no longer do that. We are not all phenomena, some need help to understand things, some need even more help (and that’s what a community should be for, right?) we don’t all have the same learning abilities and I’m sure that even some great artists that you appreciate, he needed help when he was young. If everyone followed your reasoning, maybe some great artists wouldn’t exist and would be bricklayers / plumbers… then I also think that there is a limit to everything and some are simply not ready to understand at the moment, so you can give advice once, twice, then it’s enough because you see that they don’t listen to you… I absolutely agree with this… But maybe in 10 years they will understand it in a different way and will think “that person was right 10 years ago”, everyone has their own times, there are those who understand in 5 minutes and those who take a lifetime, but music is for everyone, not just for phenomena who understand everything easily on their own. But I can also understand that not everyone can understand the reasoning I’m making. Everyone has their own skills, inside and outside of music. There are those who know how to build instruments but not compose songs, there are those who know how to compose songs but not create instruments, there are those who are good with melodies but not very good with rhythms, there are those who are good with rhythms but less with melodies, those who are very good technically but have few ideas, those who have many ideas but don’t know very well how to realize them… And outside of music, there are those who have more creativity, those who have more rationality, those who are better at everything related to mathematics or logic, who is better at everything related to philosophy or psychology… For example, it is clear that you have skills and knowledge in music that I don’t have , but I think I have a skill that you don’t have, or that you don’t show you have: empathy (but I’m ready to change my mind) because I can understand the point of view of a man tired of babysitting, but I can understand the point of view of a young guy who needs support… instead I see a lot of people stuck in their own path and that’s it… but that’s okay, in short, no one is forced to do anything… I’m just sorry that harmony only exists on the pentagram and much less between people.
I have no idea what you’re referring to, don’t you remember the download section?
You just clicked the downloads link on the front page and where taken to a whole new page with an uploader where you upload your files, choose the type of resource you are uploading and write a descriptive post. It was quite well organized and separated from the rest of the forum.
Here’s the post where this feature was announced:
You COULD judge a synthesizer by its stock instruments because that’s the tool to literally create sounds, but not A DAW. Even as a kid that was about to start creating music this fact was self-explanatory, and there was no internet, no manual and no one who explained anything, Learning by doing! I never had stock instruments except in the first SoundTracker, mostly I sampled myself and of course I also got samples from friends. I also didn’t check the stock instruments of Renoise until today. I didn’t expect stock instruments and I only noticed them because someone in the forum talked about it. Judging a DAW by its stock instruments is like judging a car by its driver or a computer by its stock software. It doesn’t make sense.
For sure you’ve got skills I don’t have. For example, you can use a piano roll without getting angry.
And based on the amount of comments alone you can see that I’m one of the most supportive guys you can find in this forum. I share my knowledge, I share my templates, I even mixed songs for some people. I’m just sick and tired to talk about things that are self-explanatory or to talk to people that behave strangely.
There’s a well known piano roll fanatic in this forum, and I’m referring to his discord, where you can download stuff like themes, templates and probably instruments, too. And no, I don’t remember the download section, I never cared about it. I even don’t know when it was cancelled. Even though I’m a member since 2011, I didn’t visit the forum for 7 years.
I repeat, not everyone has the same learning abilities, the fact that YOU understood certain things immediately or that they were so obvious that you didn’t even need to understand them, without the internet, without manuals etc… It doesn’t mean it has to be like this for everyone. Also, if kids are used to it differently, is it their fault? Who began to provide him with a lot of simplified things? who “spoiled” them? did they create them themselves? no, since they don’t know how to do it. it was the adults themselves, and now that “the damage” has been done, you can’t pretend nothing happened… I see that you are one of the most active users in giving advice and sharing your knowledge, and you are always open to dialogue and in comparison, these are things I really appreciate. but I also see that when they try to make you notice and reflect on some specific things, such as the difference in mentality that can exist between different generations or different people (even of the same age) your response, conceptually, is always this… “I understood it even as a child”, okay, I’m happy for you, but I’m telling you that there are people who need more time, or different methods, or simply to receive the information because they can’t see it for themselves …either you understand it, or you don’t. when I was 16 there were people in their 30s who asked me “what software do you use? how do you cut the samples? what bass do you use? how do you give the song this “dough” feeling?” to say that I also understood some things earlier than others… just as I haven’t understood many other things yet. so since I understood how to use a compressor at 16, what should I say to a thirty year old who doesn’t know how to use it? “music isn’t for you”?
Yes, it’s just like @BriocheBaps wrote, today eveything is available and people expect to get everything everywhere without any efforts. I almost wonder why no one asks for a button that composes songs automatically. Since a long time now I don’t expect anything from anyone anymore except one little thing: Being able to understand at least the basic things. And it’s basic knowledge that a DAW isn’t a synthesizer. Therefore it cannot be judged by stock instruments at all.
This is my answer if somebody claims that trackers are complicated and hard to learn, but not in general.
So as me. But you don’t need to understand everything, only the things you need to achieve your goals, whether in terms of music or whatever. And a 13 year old boy or a beginner in general doesn’t need to know how to use a compressor. Of course I would tell that kid to focus on composing and understanding the DAW first. Mixing and mastering isn’t important as long as the basics are missing. And even then it depends on your goals. Personally I slowly started to deal with compressors (and mixing and mastering in general) when I started to use Renoise, and I was twice as old as you at that time.
The more you know. The harder it is to learn something new.
I probably expressed myself badly this time. the compressor is just a trivial example, not the center of the discussion. I didn’t want to discuss the importance of the mix compared to the composition or vice versa… I can also express the same concept by talking about the composition, or the arrangement… in short, the concept in its essence is that since one thing, (anything whatsoever) It’s easy for me to understand, I don’t expect it to be easy for everyone, even if it’s ABC. since for me the color red is red, I don’t expect you see it red too, maybe you have some light that bothers your eyes and therefore it seems orange to you, and you only see it red when I point it out to you which is red… but if I don’t point anything out to you, you will continue to see it orange. (I’m looking for all the possible metaphors to try to make myself understood, but we probably think differently about this thing)… but anyway, I want to clarify that I don’t expect anything from you, in the sense that you are consistent with your ideas and that’s fine… you don’t care about how many people use or don’t use Renoise, you care that no one spoils your mood with strange requests. I am more “annoyed” by those who would like to push Renoise up (not modify the software…Just make it more popular, make it known to more people, etc…) but at the same time don’t lift a finger for any initiative.
What you described about understanding or not understanding is self-explanatory, but that’s not the point. The point is that you don’t judge something by something that doesn’t have anything to do with the thing you want to judge, such as stock instruments in terms of a DAW. As I said, you don’t judge a car by its driver.
I’n not annoyed by those who would like to see Renoise being more popular, but I totally disagree with the most mentioned “argument”, and that’s “there’s no piano roll”. Besides of that Renoise has a different approach. There’s no big company that runs the Renoise business. Renoise will never be Cubase and vice versa, it is what it is, and that’s what it’s meant to be. Of course it’s a pitty that trackers aren’t more popular, but that’s because what I told you above and about the history of DAWs. And no matter what you do, I’m pretty sure it’ll remain just like that. It’s like eBay or Amazon, there are a lot other websites where you could trade, but everyone sticks to that because that are the biggest players on the market. Same with YouTube when it comes to videos and so on and so on. There’s no difference when it comes to DAWs.
It depends, but basically you’re right.
Imagine that someone asked for a PR in Blockhead and I say NOT adding it (maybe I had already said it, I have some holes in my memory) because it’s nice to see something different, and believe me, if I had seen Renoise with a PR instead wich with those columns of numbers, I wouldn’t have felt the same curiosity and maybe I would never have even downloaded the demo. The reason why sometimes, in Renoise I use the PR and in Blockhead I don’t feel the need for it, is that I have known the Blockhead system since before discovering Blockhead, because it works the same as the Shapemaster of VCV Rack, while a tracker is something that I needed to know better and get used to it… but I chose to use a PR in Renoise only on a few occasions and only because I found the script already available… I never had the intention of asking for one. As I said, with the old discussion I just wanted to better understand some perspectives. I think we have clarified ourselves enough on the PR and we can consider ourselves in agreement (except for the fact that I use it and you don’t) I hope we won’t talk about it anymore haha.
As for the new topic, what you say certainly makes sense, I’m probably too optimistic thinking that with some little effort from users, Renoise can achieve more… but at this moment I think it can happen. the only thing I can’t find a point of agreement on is the fact that you say “judging a DAW in this way doesn’t make sense”, and for you the discussion ends like this. Instead I tell you, you’re right, this is not how you should judge a DAW, but often in the first phase of the journey (of the new generations) it happens that you like it or not, whether you agree or not. Simply saying “it doesn’t make sense” is not an effective explanation for those who need to understand. Creating instruments is a practical demonstration, the moment a person listens to Renoise’s stock instruments and thinks about uninstalling the DAW, they can be told: hey, wait a minute, try this…
And the person immediately understands the concept, without the need for words… But then, it’s not just about kids, it’s about us too, if we put our ideas together we can all do many more things, I don’t understand why almost no one is interested…summarizing everything I want to say: I would like to see a more active community in creating and sharing, that’s all. It’s a shame that there are a few thousand users but we only see a handful of names. 
Tonely monosynth, one pulse on top of one pulse:
2_Osc_Monosynth_1.xrni (3.3 KB)
Weird one here, really different based on octave:
TCR_TCO_03.xrni (4.8 KB)
Even weirder one, just made it, an experiment with key off and stepper:
Saw+Sine (Flanger Rig).xrni (289.2 KB)
I just love car analogies as a German. Btw. what is the topic of this thread? Who is the best Renoise user?