0Exx - Turn Curve Softing On Reset Off, Please!

I actually was thinking about posting this in the bugs thread, because from a sound designers point it simply is a bug.

When I first saw the new 0Exx retrigger command I was really happy. Then trying it out, I got disappointed pretty fast.

One of the most important parts in a sound, if not THE most important, is its attack phase. But because of the curve softing on volume and filters, Renoise atm softs any percussive attack phase away and turns the sound into a castrated rip-off, giving it a totally different character. Really, this is poisoning almost any attempt for sound design on percussive sounds. And in EDM the absolute majority of sounds is percussive.

So please, turn the softing OFF or add at least an option to turn it off/adjust it. The way it is atm, it makes the 0Exx command for 90% of all EDM sounds completely useless.

And while we’re on it, I’d also like to suggest again, to make the softing adjustable on ANY softed device, like gainer, filter, ringmod freq. Sound designers usually have a reason to design fast changes of a parameter. Renoise really shouldn’t simply soft this all away. Seriously.

They were softened because of the hideous clicks and pops that occur.
This may not be too apparent with certain percussion sounds, but there would be a lot of percusion sounds that could not overrule the clicks and pops.
Though i can’t remember the retrigger command being softened.
You are sure you don’t have a filter envelope in the instrument enabled that causes that as a side effect?

I’d think the problem is, ANY envelope movement on volume and filters is softened atm. I guess, there’s one routine handling all the volume stuff in Renoise, which of course makes sense. But this also means, you don’t have to specify “softening” for a volume related command. It’s softened by default, using the volume routine. Well, that’s at least what I imagine it to be like.

That’s 2 times the same sound, 1st played directly , 2nd envelope retriggered by 0Exx. No filter applied, nor something else. As you can see, that’s a pretty huge difference between these two, which actually should almost look like clones.

Edit: That’s not an “attack” phase anymore. It’s more like a “sneak in” phase. :D SCNR

That is indeed not a desirable effect.
But i can’t reproduce your issue if i use the correct retrig command

Rxx in 2.8, Exx is something completely different:

0Exx Set Instrument Envelope Pos

So the question remains:Are you sure you are not doing something in the envelopes that is causing that?

Well, you have to use the 0Exx command only, without triggering the sample again. Otherwise the command doesn’t make any sense. ^^ AT least for “0E00” not. Try 0E00 on a continuously playing waveform, without re-triggering the instrument itself and you’ll be able to reproduce it.

I know exactly what Bit_Arts is referring to, and it’s pretty easy to recreate it:
3122 renoise-envelope-reset-volume-ramping.xrns

Listen to the nice sharp attack of the note and volume envelope being completely retriggered, vs the softened attack of only the volume envelope being retriggered.

@Bit_Arts: It’s indeed a bit unfortunate that we don’t have a bit more control over the ramping (‘softening’ as you call it). This has also bothered me for a little while, but definitely not something we can easily change soon.

Ok, i see the problem output, i got confused by the phrase retrigger and 0exx command so i wanted to be sure he really wanted to use the exx command and did not overlooked the rxxs command by accident.

Tried to circumvent the issue with ghost-noting and referenceless retriggering, but indeed the method applied is overruling every option.
Perhaps extending the ghost noting routine could be a way to overrule that behavior if considering a solution?

I remember our talk about that. But that was related to DSPs then. When I read about the 0Exx command I really thought “Yes! Finally real re-triggering and no more dropped attack phase.”. Well, I was wrong. Of course I can see the problem behind this, but that doesn’t make the actual facts any better. To say it straight, atm we have a DAW, in theory capable of a universe of things, but still messing up the basic stuff. Things like this imho should have absolute priority, before adding any new features. Make the upcoming 2.9 a release that only gets rid of basic issues like that (adjustable softening, soft clipping for DSPs and similar stuff) and I’d personally would be absolutely fine with it.

i can imagine this being a problem when it comes to sound design. you want full control over your sound, and want the software to interfere as little as possible. even if that means clicks and pops, you’ll correct them yourself where necessary.
it would be a good thing to have this softening as an option to switch on and off. it would default to ‘on’, so regular users wouldn’t have to be bothered with this, and somebody looking for total sound-control can just switch it off.

how have I been able to make music all this time without knowing about this softening shit???

How can one be able to eat without knowing how to cook? Because he prepares himself sandwiches only or eats what other people prepared, without ever knowing or caring about how it works. ;)

Aww, not fair. Although criticizing the softening feature is fine, I think that was a bit … personal?

Anyway, since softening is sometimes desirable, sometimes not, and applies to samples only, I could see it being implemented as an extension of Autofade. After all, that feature is already “conceptually similar”.
See this little toggle-button in the lower part of the instrument settings?

I actually just wanted to return the sarcasm of the former posting. I’m sorry if someone gets this personal. That’s not my intention.

Are you sure it applies to samples only? As soon as using a Gainer, it also applies to the audio stream of any channel, no matter if using samples or VST/i. I’d think the concept behind this has to be thought over. I know softening/ramping makes sense and is even requiered sometimes, like for usual envelope movements. But there should be the option to turn it off for the next “target point” in envelopes. A kinda reset flag maybe. And please don’t forget, there’s the same problem for filter envelopes and the Ringmod DSP frequency. I yet haven’t checked, if it’s also the same for filter resonance. But I’d guess so.

Edit: The suggestion for the “next” point in enevelope is actually not correct this way. It’d have to be the current point, that shouldn’t be followed by a “sweep” to reach the related value.

There is enough room in the pre-mixer panel of the track to add a toggle for this setting (makes it also eligable for a pattern effect command to toggle it), though it could also be a thing to be added to the post mixer, however, positioning it there would render food for confusing when send-tracks are used with send-track devices that mute the on-going signal.

Ah yeah, perhaps my suggestion would be a over-simplification then. But it would still be valid for any sample command (such as the one in the topic title), so that’s part of the problem solved - at least on a user-interface level.
I guess that taking the idea further, non-softened DSP parameters would always be tricky to configure unless you actually “go atomic” and allow setting each parameter individually?

I think Jonas was being serious, but obviously, only he can answer that…Never mind

nah not serious lol, imo this is a non-issue.

That is a personal thing until you run into this problem one day.

it might well be in your case, as it is in mine. however, i can see the sensibility of this when it comes to detailed sound-design, the likes of which bit_arts is aiming for. a on/off option for this feature would not take away any functionality from Renoise as we know and love it, but would add some for people who are in need of this. it is a win-win imo.