Add buzz styled sequencing to Renoise


(shadowpsyc) #97

Correct that I haven’t used Buzz for any length of time and I see no reason to. The arranger seems very similar to other modern DAWs such as FL’s which have already failed to make me think of traditional trackers as antiquated, at least as far as composition is concerned. I could spend a few weeks and try to get more into it but it would be a lot of time wasted learning new keyboard shortcuts, being frustrated by behaviors that are different from Renoise’s(and maybe FL’s considering the arranger), fiddling with the hundreds of machines trying to replace the stock effects I use now…it looks neat, I’ve always liked the modular approach vs mixer tracks, but it’s really not worth the time when I can already sit down and finish something in FL or Renoise in one sitting anyway, it’s not like composing in Renoise is slow by any stretch of the imagination. As I said, something like FL’s playlist with flexible patterns that can be whatever you want would be nice on some levels and wouldn’t have to alter the current workflow, I just don’t see the way it is now as being the thing I’d like to see changed most.

Which video? I think I’ve watched 2 or 3 videos that you have posted, none of them convinced me that Buzz is so much more efficient than Renoise or other trackers. Probably because, again, I’ve seen people do things quickly in many programs, seeing someone throw something together in Buzz really fast isn’t unique. Yes certain operations are faster in Buzz than in traditional trackers, I also believe there are drawbacks to that approach having a less precise overview

You’re talking about copy and paste and cloning and similar operations on existing data, not creating it to begin with. This is already efficient in a tracker, a few key strokes gets the job done. A clip arranger is a near necessity in a piano roll program which separates all your data into different windows, but it’s a solution to a problem that a program like Renoise or Modplug doesn’t really have to begin with


(XG2003) #98

NOBODY has posted up a simple video of how they use the Pattern Matrix to do what can be done in Buzz. Because quite simply, it would take ten times as long to do.

You don’t even know how the Buzz Sequence Editor works, so you don’t know what you’re missing, therefore you don’t know what you’re talking about. I, at least, have used BOTH programs, and also asked, over and over, for Pattern Matrix lovers to show me if there is anything I’m missing, that is preventing me from using it as easily as I use the Buzz Sequence Editor.

It would take you FIVE MINUTES to learn how the Buzz Sequence Editor works, from my video, it’s that simple.

It’s no skin off my nose, you can carry on doing things the difficult way, and avoid even trying the easier way, so you can convince yourself that you aren’t wasting loads of time every time you write a song, dealing with the inadequacies of the interface. “a few key strokes gets the job done” indeed…


(TheBellows) #99

Don’t go buzz style arranger, please!? I watched the videos…
The damn thing looks like Microsoft Excel in the early 90’s. :panic:


(XG2003) #100

Duh. Muting the block doesn’t help me, but then, since you can’t even understand how the BSE works, I didn’t expect you to be able comprehend a simple user interface problem.

I showed CLEARLY in my video that I wanted to CHANGE the pattern in the block, not mute it. There is no easy solution, because the Pattern Matrix is a bad design. As simple as that.

In the image below, you can see that none of the pattern sequences’ numbers are anything to do with their POSITION, and thus you never have to go through the ridiculous rigmarole in the video above. The whole concept of ‘aliases’ is wrong, and a mistake, as simple as that.

The fact that SOME people here can’t even understand basic stuff like this (which I’m sure a five year old can work out) speaks volumes…

Oh look - here’s another DAW with clips, and the clips have NAMES, and their position in the timeline is in no way tied a specific point… What a crazy idea! We can’t have something simple, logical, obvious and helpful like that in Renoise! Do you want me to post up screenshots of all the other DAWs so you can see they all use the same method?

Here’s Ableton:

You see? NAMED clips, which you can move wherever you want to, thus your songmaking isn’t hampered by the restrictions of the program.

Here’s Logic Pro:

Just imagine Pattern Matrix-like behaviour being implemented in any of those programs - you write your first drum phrase, and then copy it a few times throughout the song, write a second one, intersperse that throughout the song too, then decide you want to completely change JUST the first drum phrase that you wrote, at the very start of the song. But apparently, because you wrote that phrase at 0:00, if you change it, all the other copies will be changed. Fine, you just want to change THAT one, and leave all the others as they are. You can’t. You have to manually copy and paste what could be ten or twenty copies of it, throughout the song, all over again…

If any of you can’t see this, there really is no hope for you.


(gentleclockdivider) #101

Pff you really don’t give up do you , of all the examples posted above…esp…the 10 buzz seq. there is nothing that renoise pattern matrix COULD nOT do …
If you are so upset about the AILIASES workflow…simple

DON’T USE THEM AND JUST USE COPY PASTE .


#102

@XG2003, you really are having trouble letting this go aren’t you?

It’s been made clear that a revised pattern matrix isn’t going to happen in this beta phase

So what exactly are you trying to achieve here?

I agree, the pattern matrix is not great, but it does get the job done albeit in a cumbersome way at times. I think everyone gets your point that the BSE has some great features that you really like. You have also pointed out there are many examples of how sequencing is done better in other DAW’s.

Lots of people want improvements in how sequencing works in Renoise and I am sure when the dev’s get around to exploring how to improve song sequencing they will look at other DAW’s including Buzz for ideas. It’s just not going to happen now.

Unfortunately for you if you want to get the most out of Renoise 3 now then you are going to have to live with it’s Pattern Matrix for a while.

If you don’t realise that then I suggest you go seek some help, ranting and insulting people here is not going to do you any favours or help you with your anger issues.

So now that you have made your point (many times over) the only thing I am left wondering is what exactly are you trying to achieve here?


(Carbonthief) #103

You don’t have to delete the original pattern. If you don’t want it to sound off in that position any more just mouse-wheel click it. Of course deleting the original is going to delete the aliases…

edit: anyways to be clear I’ve always thought it’d be cool to have like, an area where you can make patterns separate from the pattern matrix, and either copy paste them in or “call” them from the matrix somehow, and I’m not at all opposed to improving the current design.

The only thing I flatly disagree with is the sentiment that the current pattern matrix is bad and terrible.


(TheBellows) #104

Those images you come up with looks horrible, they’re not even comparable because they go in the wrong direction, horizontal crap.
I’m a very unorganized guy, but even i can make a track in Renoise and i have no problem keeping track of where things are.
Right now i’m working on a 4/7 + 4/9 beats track, it’s super easy in Renoise so i wonder how you do that in the excellent Buzz Sequence Editor?


(radian) #105


(Djeroek) #106

lol


(gentleclockdivider) #107

4/7 4/9
Sure about that ?
Cause you might have something new invented
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_works_in_unusual_time_signatures#4.2F3.2F2_or_4.2F3.2F4

Or do you mean 7/4 9/4 ?


(TheBellows) #108

Haha, you’r right, i doubt i have invented something new here. :lol:


(vV) #109

You can and it has been explained to you a few times before by different people: You can still unalias any particular block and change its contents without affecting the rest and without having to copy or duplicate anything.
You act as if you know very well how Renoise works but you demonstrate you clearly don’t know yet everything about Renoise and well, i suspect you are currently getting so much information thrown at you it is probably hard for you to keep up and read everything but i would advise you to do so because you miss out on some great tips here.

Currently with the phrases and the MaYbe command, i don’t see much reason to duplicate multiple percussion snippets in the PM where it was in fact the quickest way to alias or duplicate blocks.
Specially on breaks, you write one in a phrase or for all that matter just in the pattern editor (Yxx works there just as fine), use the Yxx in a partciular fashion that it gives satisfactory results on every play but still performs different every play. Automatic variation on demand with less work ;)

If you only stick around here wasting your time to cast your emotional grudge, you for sure won’t find any good workflow in Renoise. Just give it an honest chance, lock yourself up for a couple of days and really try the different things out. Come back with questions about stuff that does not behave obvious, there might be a solution to it. I’m sure there will be a couple of things you will start to appreciate and there likely may remain a couple of things you still don’t like, then so be it. If you dislike this plan at all, well you proposed a lot of alternative solutions that do precisely what you desire, it might be your better worthwhile to invest time in those alternatives.


(Djeroek) #110

dude is clueless.


(qwanta) #111

To be fair, you can’t unalias the ‘master’ block in the 1st pattern that the others are aliases of. There is not really any reason to use such a master/slave paradigm for alias clips, usually in other sequencers they are called ghost clips and are all equal so you can unalias the original one.

Anyway, for 3.0 the developers have made some incredible additions in other areas - the new sampler totally blows me away - so I agree, it’s not the right time to be focusing on what they chose to leave alone for now.

In this interview dblue does mention this area as his first “Ideas for the future”:

I’m sure when they turn their attention to it, they will come up with something great.


(XG2003) #112

Hilarious. There is nothing that the pattern matrix could not do? Then why is there no video showing me this? It’s all ‘so obvious’, but not one of you can make a video showing how to do it?

Don’t use aliases? The whole point of me wanting the BSE to be implemented in Renoise is precisely to avoid having to use cut and paste. That’s what clips (and aliases) are for. What a laughable response.


(XG2003) #113

When I first read your post, I thought to myself “What an idiot I am, I should have tried that unaliasing thing on the first block”, and thought “How am I going to hide the fact that I never tried it”.
So I went and tried it. You can’t do it. Then I remembered - I’d ALREADY tried it, when somebody else told me about unaliasing. You can’t do it.

So… “You act as if you know very well how Renoise works but you demonstrate you clearly don’t know yet everything about Renoise”…

Hilarious…

Does this video not explain it clearly enough?

ALL the other DAWs (unless I’ve missed one) use clips… clips that aren’t attached to a particular position in the timeline. Only Renoise gives a pattern an arbitrary number that it HAS to stick with, and all aliases are tied to that original sequence position.

Jesus, what do you think I’ve done in this thread already, numerous times? There ISN’T a solution. Nobody can even produce a video showing how they use the Pattern Matrix.

Thanks for your overwhelming concern… in other words, you don’t want people to be able to DISCUSS the blatant problems with the Pattern Matrix…

Nothing to see here… move along…


(XG2003) #114

Find another thread then. Are any of you FORCED to come and read this thread? Why does it bother you so much? Seriously, ask yourself that. There are plenty of other threads in the Ideas and Suggestions forum, are you losing sleep over them for daring to come up with new IDEAS? Scary, aren’t they…
It’s not up to you to decide what other people can and can’t talk about, why do you think it is?

Oh my god… did my eyes deceive me, or was that interview dated March 2011?
I’m not remotely sure “they will come up with something great”, seeing as they’ve already come up with the Pattern Matrix, and what a disaster that is…

My sentiments ENTIRELY. Thank god this guy is working on the team, but why on earth have they ignored the most important part of the program, and concentrated on the sampler? Well, I can only pray that dblue gets to implement all of the above, this has really cheered me up.

One thing intrigues me though, from that interview, he says “Forget about reusing patterns in the pattern sequencer, just always add new patterns into the sequence so that each pattern is unique, it saves a lot of headaches later on.”

Presumably this was pre-Pattern Matrix? I can’t remember when it came out.


(dblue) #115

That was actually said by Erik Jälevik (sharevari), not me. It’s simply a tip that he applies to his own personal workflow, nothing more.

I’m personally quite a fan of the Pattern Matrix these days, and especially a fan of aliases. You can see clear evidence of this in my demo song “Syntechtic Sugar”, which is comprised almost entirely of aliased pattern track blocks.

Is the Pattern Matrix perfect? No.
Is there room for improvement? Of course.
Do the imperfections prevent me from making music? Hell, no.

Anyway, I think it’s important to keep in mind that the CDM interview was done in a very loose and casual way. I was asked what possible things I might like to see in a tracker like Renoise, and so I gave a few of my personal thoughts. This definitely wasn’t intended as some kind of official road map for Renoise, so I apologise if anyone found that misleading.


(XG2003) #116

No, apparently you are, Djeroek, because you can’t unalias the first pattern which has been aliased…

Sorry, I misread the interview.

What sort of improvements do you see happening in the future, dblue?

Do you still want to see the improvements you mentioned in the interview? Are the rest of the team interested in those improvements? Is there hope?