After a week with Renoise, is it time to say goodbye?

It is about making things intuitive so beginners can start quickly.

Renoise is a tracker DAW, not a piano roll DAW, we could also ask Cubase, Logic, Live etc. where’s their tracker editor as they have a much larger development budget. Sure a piano roll is more intuitive for beginners but then they should actually use the aforementioned DAWs.

It is time to let the piano roll go until we actually miraculously get it because we are most likely never going to get it IMO.

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What are you talking about? Of course it is. Look at point 2 in Castle’s first post:

The issue is when you don’t break down layers of difficulty, just because it was how it was conceptualized 40-30 years ago.

I should have mentioned that back in 1991 there even was no internet and there was no manual. Even that didn’t stop me, the 12 year old boy, from learning it quickly.

Furthermore I wouldn’t have any problem with integrating a piano roll (even if it doesn’t make any sense) AS LONG AS it wouldn’t throttle Renoise’s performance and as long as it’s deactivated by default. I don’t want to see it anywhere anytime. Anyway, @Garf is right. There will be no piano roll in Renoise. :slightly_smiling_face:

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That is Gaslighting. We talk about Renoise, not the other DAW’s. Why we dont could have both? I dont get an valid answer from you about this?

I see not that this is you decision.

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I think if the API was slightly improved, for mouseevents and so on, a pianoroll could be perfectly made using the API. Actually toimp proved just that.

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We have talked about piano roll for decades. ~19 years ago there was a developer onboard trying to make a piano roll for Renoise but it never materialized, I participated in that thread and was a proponent but I think at some point we need to stop talking about it and send Piano roll users to other DAWs and focus on what makes this awesome tracker even greater.

Why would piano roll users actually want to use Renoise even if we had a great implementation? For me the editor is where you’ll be at most of the time so it makes very little sense to use Renoise if you mainly use the piano roll view in my opinion, it’s just some luxury for those of us who wanna nudge notes around a little bit.

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If the API give a hardware accelerated drawing control with mousesupport i agree. smooth zooming, scrolling and dragging and i would be fine with the Pianoroll from toimp. maybe alphatransparents would be good too for note velocitys maybe.

nothing is forever mate!

Look into Pianoroll thread of toimps tool, There i have written some points why pianoroll is more intuitive, efficient and more productiv IN SOME SCENARIOUS (not overall) with equal viewpictures.

Oh yes!! And copper bars. Blitter operations. I need to program a sine scroller.

on directx/openGL/SDL or what ever Renoise use, you dont need a Copper or Blitter chip to do that. :wink:

great Amiga times…

I doubt you’ll get anything smooth scrolling considering we never got a vertical smooth scrolling pattern editor, hopefully some day

I dont meaned the playscrolling.

I can only agree, mate.

I started tracking on the C64 in 1991 also at the same age. As many other did.
And there were no manuals or tutorials needed. Just curiosity.
The same was true for Amiga and PC trackers.
It somehow felt just natural and logical to work this way.
Sure, software was not that complex back then but it was still the same system.

To be fair, if one starts out on a tracker they probably also know their way around in DAW-land.
But it is different the other way around.
It seems people had a different kind of computer affinity and focus back then.
Like you said @TNT, everything was new.
But nowadays many are already used to the shiny and fancy stuff out there when growing up.
The world around us is much more distracting and nervous now.

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I think Renoise is not that well balanced regarding workflow. Some parts are awesome, some parts are really outdated. Overall it’s a great package of course, providing a lot of unique features. But there also is space for improvements. I can understand if newbies do not like hexadecimal numbering, or would except a slider or automation curve instead simply. Or let’s take instrument numbers, those are IMO only confusing, and neither make sense, since the track amount is not limited anymore and there are groups, too.

@oldcastle Taktik made clear that such core conceptual things won’t change (too much effort), but as a newbie you won’t know that. Maybe try Renoise a bit longer. Once you get used to some workflow limitations and abnormalities, there are also a ton of unique, very smart features, and also a ton of standard DAW features. Also it does not cost an arm and a leg. Can’t imagine better spent money tbh. For example I already spent over 500€ for Bitwig, and they still have neither a tracker view, nor free drawable lfo!!

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I do keep eyeing Bitwig for The Grid. I bounced off the demo a bit, but I do keep reading about its updates. Is it worth a punt?

Why?

Absolutely. Their “comfort zone” is a shiny piano roll, which is the reason why most of them wouldn’t use a tracker. Even if learning is SO MUCH easier compared to back then. But even searching for information or reading information is obviously too much work. People need video tutorials for any shit you can imagine. And many of them need someone who does the thinking for them, too.

I think the focus has changed. Nowadays it’s not about skills, power and performance anymore, it’s about presentation, representation and lobbyism. Look around! People are focussed on maintaining their fake life online and seeking for likes and followers. It’s similar when we talk about DAWs. A bad DAW can be successfull if its presentation is good and vice versa.

Hm, I don’t know in which context. In my eyes it’s great, just like my workflow. But I don’t do special things, I just compose simple things and use VSTs. I don’t want to control hardware via Renoise, play live or else. :slightly_smiling_face:

There’s always space for improvements. But just small things. You can’t reinvent the wheel. :wink:

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That´s just what i gathered from others in the past.
Oldschool tracker folks were just smarter :wink:

I fully agree. Don´t get me started.
I have been working at a company where 90% of employees were like that.
Members of a generation of spineless pussies and dumb-asses.
They define themselves by how others view them and are lacking the ability to self-reflect on their actions and to think critically.
And it is this critical thinking which keeps one from mainstream hype and brainwashing.
I don´t mean to insult anyone but some take everything personal and feel insulted anyway - no matter how you put it. But that´s another issue.

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In generally for the World i go agree with you. But not for specific and concret extensions with functionallitys that have undeniable advantages in some scenario’s like for instance the pianoroll. And this had nothing to do with the people, or the learingcurve. It’s simply because its in many conditions (#notall) the most intuitive and/or most productive way (in other words the best way) to make music. Thats the point. And Renoise will be even a tracker. Thats why i dont understand the people always crying about adding pianoroll. they loose nothing. They can further work like they always do. No one forced they to switch on Pianoroll use. But if she accept Pianoroll simply as a further possibiliy, she maybe get notice thats she is usefull for here own work too.

happy tracking

I couldn’t disagree with you more,think renoise would be better off without users like you.A week…what a joke.

They still are. :upside_down_face:

The problem is that thinking presupposes intelligence, and obviously mankind is losing its intelligence. The most are already parroting sheeps and it gets worse and worse.

You’re absolutely right! You can’t please everyone. It’s like Renoise, which can’t please everyone, too. So what?! The ones who doesn’t like it should move on, and the ones who appreciate it will definitely have some fun creating easily cool shit with it.