Bad news for Cakewalk lovers....

General Discussion
21

Do you really think maids in germany get paid a lot? I’m not so sure.

I need to give reaper a try. I’ve been yearning for audiotracks for a while.

Has anyone tried the MPC 2.0 software? It has audiotracks and realtime pitchshift and timestretch.

Maybe its a better choice?

They are offering it to me for free as I bought the MPD218 controller some time ago.

Is it worth learning it? I’ve been hearing on the grapevine that its actually quite good.

A maid in Germany get paid a lot in comparing with doctors in some cities of our world. It was just a comparing between the Demo version of Reaper and the full version" that failed" of Cakewalk’s anything.
Reaper is a compact and flexible\easy to use program , even the demo version in full functioned

Reaper had been written in LUA " as Renoise" BUT, it doesnt contain any conceptual integrated thread, except some basic fxs like delay\chorus\reverb ,
Reaper is more like an Editor-Redactor than a DAW.
Users of Reaper buy a lot of vst plugins and sounds because Reaper itself can not do Nothing.
I use Reaper to record live sounds, it is perfect for recording live midi- audio performance with the minimal amount of latency between all the programs " almost 0,1 ms"
Reaper has more functions and addons for live editing the audio files.
Reaper can be a good program for bands- rock groups …etc. But for creative people, it is not a Renoise :slight_smile: )mb

22

I think I will check out this MPC2.0 software as its free ( with MPD218 purchase ) and looks like a big improvement on MPC Essentials. Also it has timestretch and pitchshift ( something renoise needs ). Reaper looks great too…shame I cant buy it right now, low on funds.

23

Lol, maids here in germany cannot afford cakewalk. You should know, they are indeed paid rather well in comparison to other countries. And you would be surprised how little maids there are in germany, they are mostly employed in hotels I think. Only ones who could afford a full time maid for private purposes, are the big bad fat ass slugbold ultra rich capitalist having eaten them all winners. A doctor for example most probably couldn’t afford a maid in his house - maybe someone who can come to clean his house for an hour or two once per week. Doctor has to work very hard to pay the housecleaner, and to keep a modest house he probably owns, or some larger apptmnt in a city. Cleaning maid also needs to clean many houses apart from another full time job and that of her husband, to get along. You know, the amounts of money paid for work in germany may seem high in comparison to other countries, even the dole might seem like a nice income, but in reality life in germany is very expensive. If you are on this dole, you can have some minimum standards from it, but still you will be apart from the mainstream culture due to lack of money to pay things that would let you take part in it. This seems also to be a common misconception among the current imigrants - they seem to come in the illusion that it is easy to find a crazy high (to their standards) paid job and get by easily. But then reality hits them, and only people interested in employing them is the readily waiting mafia, to pay them for selling drugs or taking part in housliftings. All societies on this world are kind of golden air on the top and dirt and mud at the lower levels, germany just is kind of a rich quagmire, the richness not making it substantially different from other societies seperated to castes of different wealth and wellbeing, and this seems to be true for any society but maybe some silly jungle tribes having good times snorting vine powders and still believing the spirits talking to them that it is bad to build one’s wealth by standing on the shoulders of someone forced to be in that situation while enjoying fresh air and shitting on his head.

Yes, even for an average german, buying music software is a major investion. So even germans would rather pirate all the hundreds of euros to get things going, even if they are from a rather rich family. For someone from a lower “caste” it would be impossible to get into business without pirating software and hustling in some way to get hold on hardware equipment.

I always thought this would be some unwritten law - you pirate all the stuff, until you made enough money with it to buy legit licenses. It won’t work the other way round unless you are very rich, maybe some rich people would buy all the software and libraries as toys, who knows. I excluded renoise from this and bought it as a toy without having pirated it before, because it is rather cheap. Ableton for example would be some major investion for me, I couldn’t easily afford it. Also I feel like renoise alone couldn’t get me into business making enough money to not having to do anything else (what musicians tend to dream of…), however good I might get in using it, deadlines and expectations in regard to quality etc in the industry are just too strict to allow trying to do everything without use of lots of plugins/preset libraries. Other than in niches, that is.

24

Reaper had been written in LUA " as Renoise" BUT, it doesnt contain any conceptual integrated thread, except some basic fxs like delay\chorus\reverb ,

Uhh …not really

Some lua extensions , but reaper is written in c ,c++, assembly .

it’s the first thing that shows up when googling for it .

And about reaper effects , true the instruments are non existent …basic sample player ( samplomatic ) and a ridiculous synth …the effects however are great .

2 types .

  1. cockos effects , written in c++ , flanger , convolver reverb , multiband compressor etc…the convolution reverb is amazing , it goes far beyond just loading impulse files .

And

2)the jesus sonic suite (js) , which offer a shitload of effects and integrated sequencers by other users and cockos …you obviously have not taken the time to delve into reaper .

random clip from you tube …to show what the js language is capable of …in this case …megasequencer .

It’s the equivalent of renoise phrases , transposible patterns , independent length and time signature ( not shown in video ., every step can be divided in 8 smaller steps/ off sets , delayed timing etc …it’s pretty awesome

J.s. language also does audio processing

25

Renoise was written in lua?? This is new to me. Until now i thought it is written in c++, and it provides a scripting interface in lua, plus some functionality seems to be done in lua, like advanced edit stuff (as you can see from the combing thru speed). Is that true? That would pretty much explain a lot of problems regarding timing and speed.

26

Renoise was written in lua??

Haha… Hell no it wasn’t!

Either someone here is a bit confused, or a few details simply got lost in translation earlier in the thread.

Renoise is written in C++ as you previously suspected… And that also includes the advanced edit panel :slight_smile:

27

Haha… Hell no it wasn’t!

Either someone here is a bit confused, or a few details simply got lost in translation earlier in the thread.

Renoise is written in C++ as you previously suspected… And that also includes the advanced edit panel :slight_smile:

Lol ! i thought it is a 100% LUA product ) Sorry guys! Im bad in geography.

28

Renoise was written in lua?? This is new to me. Until now i thought it is written in c++, and it provides a scripting interface in lua, plus some functionality seems to be done in lua, like advanced edit stuff (as you can see from the combing thru speed). Is that true? That would pretty much explain a lot of problems regarding timing and speed.

timing speed problems ?

Renoise timing is superb, and as dblue said: written in c+.

Please , look up some facts before posting stuff , looking at you medievlil music .

29

timing speed problems ?

Renoise timing is superb, and as dblue said: written in c+.

Please , look up some facts before posting stuff , looking at you medievlil music .

Just read one of my many posts, and don’t pretend everything is totally fine. Also I don’t give a shit about Windows version. I didn’t mean output midi timing, yeah that’s one thing which works very precisely in Renoise.

30

Lol ! i thought it is a 100% LUA product ) Sorry guys! Im bad in geography.

As I understand it, any executable can not be done 100% LUA, because this programming language needs a host, in this case Renoise encoded with another language.So, Reaper, Renoise any other program can not be written 100% with LUA.However, LUA is based on C.Maybe that’s where the confusion comes from.

For example, any tool (written with the API LUA) can not run alone, it needs its host…

Anyone who builds tools has to adapt to the LUA API available from Renoise, which by the way was available in later versions, not from the beginning, if I remember correctly.

31

timing speed problems ?

Renoise timing is superb …

If you write tools with LUA for Renoise that require a dynamic and updated GUI in real time, you will encounter problems with “the time”. Here a few milliseconds can be a big headache.

I suppose this is also related. Some users who have written tools have continuously requested an option to be able to follow the selected line in real time while the song is playing (without any millisecond delay). All this makes creating dynamic tools is expensive and imprecise, as could be a pianoroll.

For some reason, I’ve seen some interesting tools with dynamic GUI that are never shared, end up being unfinished betas. Perhaps the limitations of the available LUA API of Renoise have to do with all this, and are related to the speed of execution.

As I have been able to experiment using timers, depending on the hardware and its power, there may be significant time lags.

On the other hand, the Renoise GUI is not always in tow with the sound. With a little powerful hardware (slow), it will not have a smooth reproduction, you can even experience important jumps in the graphics. All this has to do with time, and I suppose it is a cause of how it is programmed in C.

This is even more interesting if you use a very large number of tracks. If you use more than 90-100 tracks, adding a few more tracks at the same time can cause problems when you finish running a function of a tool which means adding tracks. For some reason, the maximum index number of the tracks influences. The higher, the worse it is to include tracks.All this has to do with time and of course, the processing capacity of your computer.

Use few tracks and a powerful computer and everything will be fine…

32

I just want to point out that the claims of lack of speed in LUA are greatly exaggerated IMO. I have yet to see a tool (released or gifanim prototypes) trying to do something where the current speed would not suffice in practice. Especially considering that it’s a scripted extension.

33

I was reffering to timing as in ’ tight timing’ ., controlling hardware , vst’s …in that regard renoise is the best

Not about laggy lua gui updates , I don’t care about those ,

34

I just want to point out that the claims of lack of speed in LUA are greatly exaggerated IMO. I have yet to see a tool (released or gifanim prototypes) trying to do something where the current speed would not suffice in practice. Especially considering that it’s a scripted extension.

When using a slow playback speed (BPM and LPB slow) you will not notice speed problems. However, if you use a fast playback speed you may experience problems of execution, more than talking about speed, I would speak of precision.

For example, a composition with patterns with a high resolution. This is many lines playing very fast with few notes.Even using timers you can find precision problems, for example, by illuminating a marker, in the GUI of the tool.In this case, use a low resolution in each pattern and there will be no problems.

From what I have seen, the LUA code is read very fast, even though the functions are enormously long. Another thing is how long it takes the computer to finish executing this function. Here it depends on how well it is written apart from what it is for.

I suppose that FFX also refers to problems of time with the issue of programming tools.

For MIDI input (play live) or VSTis playback, I have not noticed anything significant. Everything is going very fast. Some users have complained about specific delay problems with the MIDI input. I guess it will depend on the hardware too.

I read a comment that playing in real time when recording, for example a piano, then it does not sound as it played. This has never happened to me. Maybe it’s a problem of bad configuration or hardware.

By the way, this topic is being diverted…

I regret the closure of the company, and above all, the sadness of its loyal customers.I guess not everything is because of piracy. It is that there is a lot of competition, a lot of “substitute product” and it has to compete with all that. Blaming piracy today no longer makes sense; piracy is one more thing.Companies will know that it will always be there. The business model to follow will have to keep this in mind as well.

In addition, the really high prices of some DAWs, which are designed for people with a lot of money, and the ways they have to protect some programs, with online subscriptions, costly activations etc, are things that bother customers. It is very easy to say that the prices go down. But if they do not sell so much per copy, it may be the cause of a high price and this that just also feeds more piracy.

Interestingly, a lot of pirated software is the most used, and that also serves to people end up buying that product, because it is used by everyone.I have no idea about the reasons for the closure. Maybe they are restructuring to sell another type of product? A facelift, to sell another brand.Sometimes changing brands to sell a similar product is a good strategy.

The day that Taktik decides to announce in the forum that he is retiring and that he will not continue with Renoise will be horrible news.If Renoise dies, to which tracker do you migrate, Radium?There is no other DAW like Renoise.VSTi and DAWs based on pianoroll are many.If one company fails, you have another…

35

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36

The song xml / data searching/replacing doesn’t seem to be fast, it is slow (maybe caused by the used xml lib or the xml song structure or the way the xml searches are built, since I know now the adv. edit functionality is not built in LUA, but c++).

XML is really only used when importing and exporting files.

We don’t use XML as the internal data structure, as it would be too clumsy and inefficient to work that way.

So we’re not constantly digging through thousands of XML nodes just to perform crucial pattern operations or anything like that.

The simple fact is that some of the advanced edit operations can get rather heavy rather quickly, especially with larger songs.

Modifying a few pattern lines here and there is no big deal, but when you start applying changes to ‘track in song’ or ‘entire song’, then the amount of data being processed grows pretty much exponentially.

A few tiny bits of pattern data suddenly becomes a few hundred bits, or a few thousand, or a few million!

Sometimes Renoise just needs a moment to have a really good think about things :slight_smile:

37

e.g. if I transpose all notes of a song, it still takes like 5 seconds - on a fast cpu and a 5 min song. I think this is a conceptual problem then. IMHO you still could heavily speed this up. Should be done in the twinkling of an eye, it is C++. Why millions of calls while transposing over song, don’t understand? I did program C++, too :slight_smile: Do you mean calling abstracted pattern data? What about some caching then or a better data model? As a side note, I don’t care too much about adv. edit speed, since I would say there are more important things to improve. But if adv. edit is so slow and you would improve it from the core, maybe the whole app would benefit.

38

Well, yes, but you do know that in germany most of the housemaids are being schooled in Lua? It would require at least one of their landlords to make a product in C++. Thus Renoise MUST be coded in Lua, else you would ofc clearly see a proper coat-of-arms in the product logo. And the maids here are very proficient at doing it, so there should be no real difference in execution speed to be noticed…

39

Wow that pretty much explains it! Why the godfather taktik himself never comments or thumbs up/down in here? Meh

40

If Renoise dies, to which tracker do you migrate, Radium?There is no other DAW like Renoise.VSTi and DAWs based on pianoroll are many.If one company fails, you have another…

I saw a guy doing a talk about radium. Looked like he had some cool ideas like automation and samples directly into vertical tracks, but the whole program was not running properly and it needed JACK or something. It looked like it was all messed up.

If renoise development stopped it would suck ( still hoping for audiotracks and stuff one day ) but I would continue using the final version anyway. If I had to choose one tracker to migrate to fully I’d choose sunvox. People still dont realize sunvox is seriously nice.

If there was no more renoise and no more sunvox, I’d probably just go old skool and use milkytracker. Never really tried modplug, there is another called skale…I heard those two are O.K.