Bjork Effect

[Bit_Arts]

That’s a pretty nice tutorial. Though there is a tiny “error” in it. Tiny, but with a huge impact.

To get the maximum effect out of this setup, you have to mute the source in the Delay DSP. This increases the FX amount of the original tutorial by 100%. And it sounds like there’s worlds between both setups. By not muting it, you kill half of the FX amount.

[foxbunny]

@eeter

So… I don’t get it why you need to use send tracks for it…
Here’s the same thing without sends.

Damn, I was almost sure I tried it before, but obviously haven’t… Thanks for point that out.

@eeter

Also in your example you have the synth1 panned almost fully left so that only a little amount of the signal passes to the right channel. Muting the Pull Left send reveals that there is almost no ‘Björkifying’ effect.

You mean you can’t hear the difference between left send muted and unmuted? I just rechecked the file I uploaded to dropbox, and I can hear the not-so-insignificant difference. If I solo the track, disable all DSPs, and then monitor the master spectrum, I see both L and R have signal…

[Bit_Arts]

@eeter

So… I don’t get it why you need to use send tracks for it…
Here’s the same thing without sends.
Also in your example you have the synth1 panned almost fully left so that only a little amount of the signal passes to the right channel. Muting the Pull Left send reveals that there is almost no ‘Björkifying’ effect.

My first thought was also, a Delay with a muted source should do the same job. But in fact it doesn’t.

What happens in the tutorial setup is, it doesn’t just delay one side. It delays one side and adds the delayed signal to the non delayed signal, of the same side. The psycho-acoustic effect makes a huge difference. You can’t achive this with one delay only.

[eeter]

@FOXBUNNY

You mean you can’t hear the difference between left send muted and unmuted? I just rechecked the file I uploaded to dropbox, and I can hear the not-so-insignificant difference. If I solo the track, disable all DSPs, and then monitor the master spectrum, I see both L and R have signal…

It may be that the synth1 preset sounds different over here. Not a good idea anyway to use VST-s in example .xrns files because some people don’t have them available.

[foxbunny]

@Bit_Arts

My first thought was also, a Delay with a muted source should do the same job. But in fact it doesn’t.

What happens in the tutorial setup is, it doesn’t just delay one side. It delays one side and adds the delayed signal to the non delayed signal, of the same side. The psycho-acoustic effect makes a huge difference. You can’t achive this with one delay only.

Actually, eeter is correct. I’ve tested both methods, and there’s absolutely no difference (that I can hear). I added the instructions for eeter’s setup to the original post. Thanks, eeter!

[Bit_Arts]

@FOXBUNNY

Actually, eeter is correct. I’ve tested both methods, and there’s absolutely no difference (that I can hear). I added the instructions for eeter’s setup to the original post. Thanks, eeter!

Well, I can hear it. And I can measure it. It’s really not the same.

Give me a few minutes. I’ll put up an example to download with several comparisons.

[eeter]

@Bit_Arts

My first thought was also, a Delay with a muted source should do the same job. But in fact it doesn’t.

What happens in the tutorial setup is, it doesn’t just delay one side. It delays one side and adds the delayed signal to the non delayed signal, of the same side. The psycho-acoustic effect makes a huge difference. You can’t achive this with one delay only.

You’re right. Compared them and there’s a quite big difference actually.
But I really don’t get it where the difference comes from.

[foxbunny]

@eeter

It may be that the synth1 preset sounds different over here. Not a good idea anyway to use VST-s in example .xrns files because some people don’t have them available.

You’re right about leaving unsampled VST. I added links to presets to the original post. Would the right way to post this be to export the whole track without DSPs as a WAV file? Plugin grabber totally didn’t do the trick (or I suck at grabbing plugins…).

[Bit_Arts]

@eeter

You’re right. Compared them and there’s a quite big difference actually.
But I really don’t get it where the difference comes from.

That’s simple. Just follow the signal flow and think over what it does.

1st send + 1 receive = doubled volume on the non-affected side
2nd send + 1 receive (delayed) = summary of 2 time-displaced signals

So the tutorial setup layers 4 streams. 3 originally timed and 1 delayed.

With the common delay in comparison you just get one non-delayed side and one delayed. Which is only 2 streams, one of them delayed.

Btw… did you guys actually see me previous advise?

That’s a pretty nice tutorial. Though there is a tiny “error” in it. Tiny, but with a huge impact.

To get the maximum effect out of this setup, you have to mute the source in the Delay DSP. This increases the FX amount of the original tutorial by 100%. And it sounds like there’s worlds between both setups. By not muting it, you kill half of the FX amount.

Try this. So the effect becomes REALLY obvious. Sounds REALLY wide.

[foxbunny]

@Bit_Arts

That’s simple. Just follow the signal flow and think over what it does.

1st send + 1 receive = doubled volume on the non-affected side
2nd send + 1 receive (delayed) = summary of 2 time-displaced signals

So the tutorial setup layers 4 streams. 3 originally timed and 1 delayed.

With the common delay in comparison you just get one non-delayed side and one delayed. Which is only 2 streams, one of them delayed.

Ok, I think I know why I couldn’t hear the difference. I have -3dB volume on both sends, so I don’t have that volume boost in the example. It’s either that, or my headphones need a replacement. I wanted to demonstrate the “expansion” part without making it louder than the original.

@Bit_Arts

Try this. So the effect becomes REALLY obvious. Sounds REALLY wide.

Ha! Awesome. It really makes a huge difference. Thanks. Added to the original post.

[Bit_Arts]

Uhm, wait… I’m telling crap. Totally crap. At least for the signal summaries, because these are not layered. The second send DSP is muted.

So, like eeter said, the output should indeed be the same, using a single delay. But it’s still a fact the setup’s output differs from the plain setup with a delay only. That’s pretty strange. I’ll try to get into this…

Anyway, here’s for a first step the corrected (muted resource) download.

[foxbunny]

@Bit_Arts

Uhm, wait… I’m telling crap. Totally crap. At least for the signal summaries, because these are not layered. The second send DSP is muted.

But it’s still a fact the setup’s output differs from the plain setup with a delay only. I’ll try to get into this…

Btw, in that test file, you delayed different channels in the plain-delay and tutorial-delay versions. It doesn’t change the fact they are different, but it might help get more correct findings.

EDIT: I’ve flipped the channels on the plain-delay delay DSP (left 40ms, right 1ms), and it no longer sounds different, just quieter.

[Bit_Arts]

@FOXBUNNY

Btw, in that test file, you delayed different channels in the plain-delay and tutorial-delay versions. It doesn’t change the fact they are different, but it might help get more correct findings.

EDIT: I’ve flipped the channels on the plain-delay delay DSP (left 40ms, right 1ms), and it no longer sounds different, just quieter.

LOL, okay. No need to wonder why the measured stereo spread differs then.

Anyway, this setup isn’t useless. When you add a Gainer on one of the send tracks and inverse its output the shared mono frequencies of both channels are eleminated on the summary. So you can still maximze the stereo feeling of the sound this way. Other side of the medal: this also might reduce frequencies you might not want to lose.

[vvoois (vV)]

I used to use sampleoffset +1 for the right channel to bloat sounds.
Though watch out with certain sounds:Also test your song in mono mode if it still sounds okay in mono. It might not always sound so powerfull in mono.

[foxbunny]

@Bit_Arts

Anyway, this setup isn’t useless.

Hehe, I hope not.

[Bit_Arts]

Btw. … if you use things like this (or the single delay variation) to phatten up or widen your sound, be aware of the fact that for our ear it sounds like the sound is panned to the side, where the signal is NOT delayed (because our brain concludes, a signal reaching our ear first, must be the nearest). So it’s a good idea to have 2 setups of the same kind, with both variations (1 early left, 1 early right), and just use different instruments on both. This makes the whole mix sound more balanced.

Edit: You’ll be able to notice the “panning” effect on more percussive or plucked sounds. Hard to hear on sounds with a slow attack.

[foxbunny]

@Bit_Arts

Btw. … if you use things like this (or the single delay variation) to phatten up or widen your sound, be aware of the fact that for our ear it sounds like the sound is panned to the side, where the signal is NOT delayed (because our brain concludes, a signal reaching our ear first, must be the nearest). So it’s a good idea to have 2 setups of the same kind, with both variations (1 early left, 1 early right), and just use different instruments on both. This makes the whole mix sound more balanced.

Edit: You’ll be able to notice the “panning” effect on more percussive or plucked sounds. Hard to hear on sounds with a slow attack.

I’m currently trying to get a setup with delay on both sends, controlled by LFOs with inverted curve (relative to each other). To sort of get the delay to ping-poing between the channels.

EDIT: Ok, time to go to bed. Ignore the last bit. I probably won’t be able to make it work.

[kazakore]

If you’re summing the signals together you should be using -6dB, not -3dB, to bring them back to original level (-6.021dB more precisely.)

[pleasuretrail]

tried this with nice results! also gave me more ideas about cool things to do with the send tracks. thanks a bunch!!

[foxbunny]

I tried this on one tune:

Do the 2-send version of the tutorial, and then, create a third send, route signals of left and right sends to the third send, and add StereoExpander on it. Best of both worlds. Here’s the tune that uses the effect:

http://soundcloud.com/foxbunny/foxbunny-in-da-house

The synth and strings are routed through the 2-1-send setup.