Call me a grumpy old fart...

Okay, first, I still like ReNoise and I like that the team allows you to use any version you want that your license has covered. This is great because I’m seriously not digging the changes in the interface as of late. I’m sure they make sense in some form or fashion but it’s getting to the point where each new release I feel like I have to relearn everything just to use a program I was already comfortable with.

Is there, maybe, some script that can rearrange the interface into something that more resembles older versions? I haven’t messed with scripting at all in ReNoise at all, so I don’t know if it’s capable of changing stuff that’s hardwired in the design, but if this is possible, has anyone scripted a 3.0-Looks-And-Feels-Like-Version-2?

As it is, I’m rolling back to older versions. Granted I haven’t used it in a while due to time and other priorities, but I was severely let down after getting excited that version 3 was released and it’s nothing like the ReNoise I grew up with interface-wise. IT’s still dope, it’s still cool, but this arrangement is no bueno…

Sorry for being less than supportive, but I feel like the interface changes were an afterthought to the new elements introduced and then after they were added, the team couldn’t figure out how to best insert them into the already crowded interface of 2.8. It’s time to streamline this stuff, peeps. I feel like it’s going to turn into Blender…it does everything, but because you can’t find what you’re looking for, it does nothing at all.

What was the last release where you truly felt this to be the case — where you felt like everything had changed and you had to re-learn the entire application?

Sorry, but it’s not possible to rearrange native GUI elements with the Lua scripting API.

Why is it no bueno? Is it just because it’s different to what you were comfortable with before, or is it because there’s something that truly feels broken and unusable to you? Is there something specific you don’t like?

It definitely wasn’t an afterthought. A large part of the focus for 3.0 was to consciously reorganise and consolidate various components into a more unified and self-contained system. In previous versions, the various instrument properties and editors were scattered around different parts of the application, for example. In 3.0, we tried to bring all of those elements back together into a central instrument editor.

Change is obviously a little difficult to deal with at times — nobody is denying that — but are we really talking about an overall horribly negative experience here, or is it simply a different experience? Is it a change that you absolutely cannot live with, or is it one that you can possibly learn to understand and appreciate over time?

Hseiken dude, not deal with it, but spend more time with it!

To me it felt a little like the pattern command changes in 2.8, moving from protracker legacy commands (e.g; 1XX, 2XX) to new command versions (UXX, DXX). At first I thought why change our workflow? Some time later it is second nature here. Anything which messes with your trusted workflow feels like a setback at first, as a lot of Renoise users have different workflows, some people will always feel more hindered when stuff gets shuffled or even functionality removed.

Theres always something that could be done better in the eyes of old grumpy men :lol: Here’s my 2 cents.

Wonder why the sampler have an accordion menu instead of tabs?
An accordion is a terrible solution especially if you can’t even have them open at the same time. Also if you stick to tabs throughout it would help making it feel consistent.

When you make a drumkit, the diskop is on the right side of the screen, but where you place the sample in the sampler is all the way on the left side, this feel suboptimal for a feature you should use so often, am i missing a quicker way to do this? I mostly end up loading each sample in its own instrument slot instead.
By the way the long vertical bar with preset buttons to the right of diskop takes up too much space for what it is and just add to the feeling of clutter, it should be incorporated into the diskop somehow. (FYI: I just use the Toggle diskop and path presets maybe that’s why I dislike this long vertical bar of nothing)

Lastly I think there’s quite a few horizontal and vertical split lines that add to the clutter here and there in the GUI, I know why they are there and in most cases it’s okay, but getting rid of some may make the whole thing feel more clean and less cramped.

I couldn’t agree more on this one. As much as I dig the new sampler possibilities, the sliding window stuff is the one thing I really don’t get. Looks fancy at first – is annoying as hell one second later. It is just confusing to look at. Using the F3-F6 keys eases the pain, but I really see no benefit in this visual effect.

I made a PS edit in the betaforums once, can’t find the post but it looked like this

I doubt developers will change it back, now that accordionstyle is already established, but I wanted to dig it out once more anyway :P

spread the word! :D

I guess you are not critizing the visual effect, but rather the idea to have the sampler arranged vertically (accordion)?
Because, you can easily switch off the sliding effect if it annoys you (Preferences > GUI > Enable GUI effects)

As for becoming a “power user” - as you said, F3-F6 are good to know, and the same is true for ALT+D (detach instr. editor) and then ALT+R (toggle phrase editor). Those are my most-often used new shortcuts in R3

Agreed, there are a few too many of those.

oh yes, that’s better. I still don’t like the vertical tabs, but without the animation it is much nicer. Unfortunately turning it off also gets rid of the DSP’s position swap animation, which again I find usefull as it provides a visual feedback of something important happening.

Anyway, my design is far superior. German scientists have already proven that. It also takes away much less space, while being kind to your mousearm due to top/bottom redundancy. It connects better to the old version and nobody likes accordions anyway. (because they remind ourselves of old people, with all their wrinkles and black buttons that look like liver spots)

I’m pretty sure there are some good accordion artists that could make you weep with their music. It is not the proper type of excuse to disregard a graphic design.

If you ain’t making music I feel bad for you son, I got 99 problems but vertical tabs ain’t one :wink:

oh come on it was a joke. i have wept my proper time at accordion music… and as well got my share from the experience of old people, don’t ground me on that one! And you haven’t yet disproven the german scientists :P

I could never go back to 2.8, the interface now is way smarter and didn’t really take very long to get used to. Spend some time with it, get used to it, realize how superior it is to 2.8.

I’m personally annoyed with the vertical accordion tabs too. It takes more time to navigate and open the right one than it would take with tabs. GUI-wise it feels suboptimal as your click targets move_around! Useless cursor kilometers galore.

I used 1.8-2.5 quite religiously and then dropped off for a couple of years, focusing on hardware, but would now and then come in and use it for post production on hardware stuff.

I didn’t even realize 3 was in the works, much less released when I downloaded it and looking back, I think 2.5 was the last version (and even then the morphing out of what I personally feel was it’s core attraction to me) was starting to get faded into something else.

Now granted, I can use those old versions. And I’m not going to say I will cease support of this program because I like that it’s an alternative to the normal paradigm of DAW and sequencer and such. But even in 2.8 when the sample manager got moved around from it’s own page to just a little box, but then it’s also it’s own screen, but then it’s really not…Before, it was just a screen. That screen was the sampler. Now it’s just kinda shoved everywhere and haphazardly. That’s the best way I can explain what I mean about how the interface isn’t keeping up with the features.

I’m all for new features, but they have to be logically integrated. I mean, one of the things, as I mentioned, was the interface from older versions just being a good implementation of the features. Too many programs that could probably do amazing things like create use alchemy and create gold out of the lead in the paint in your walls, but you can’t even figure what menu does that. I feel like ReNoise is going down that dark path…

Just my observations. You seem to be on defensive and I’m not diminishing you personally or your contributions, just offering a critique as a long time user. I feel interface is at times even more important than the feature-set. If you’re fumbling through menus all the time, you’re not making music. And yes, with 3.0, I really feel like I have to re-sit down to relearn a program I’ve literally used at the very least off and on for 10 years.

That’s kinda annoying.

Same here.

i found myself a workaround:

I create my tracks in 2.8 and I’m finetuning and mixing them in 3.0 :lol:

I’m old and grumpy but I much prefer the 3.0 interface. It just fell into place immediately with me to the point where I almost right away forgot what 2.8 was like. I can see how from a more hardcore tracker perspective it may feel wrong (at first at least), but Renoise obviously isn’t about the hardcore tracker experience, and the current interface shows evolution and maturity.

One example I could name is how using VST instruments no longer feels like you’re doing something dirty anymore. They have their tab just like any other instrument and fit into the workflow in exactly the same way.

Not that I’m a reference in any way. Just my 2c.

OP i agree 100%. i just can’t hack it. 2.8 for life. or ableton, as i’ve been doing the last few weeks. the new renoise UI is just to cluttered IMO.

Somebody dropped the A-Bomb. :panic:

3.0 is far from cluttered IMHO. What could be better are the usertool-shortcut mapping capabilities. I used 2.8 just for a few days, though.

Menu diving and tab switching is a far cry from how ReNoise used to be arranged.

I think I mentioned Blender in my OP…I think in the future, if the interface continues down this path, it will indeed have Blender’s insanely cumbersome interface. To put it in perspective, Blender’s got so many features and not enough places for them, they have their own interface paradigm (which comes in handy mostly) but the most ridiculous of all…space bar = function search. That’s right, there’s so much shit in blender, it has in built search function to find them all. That’s ridiculous…basically what i’m getting at is that new features are fine and dandy, but without a proper place that doesn’t impose on the main functions (something I’ve noticed is that the actual tracker window in default view is getting smaller and smaller), it just becomes clutter, despite how great a feature.

Just my opinion, obviously, but I kind of think of it as Korg vs. Roland in terms of features and accessibility. Korg products often skimp on features but fine tune the ones they have and design them to be immediately accessible and fun. Roland products, generally, go the opposite route. THey try to cake everything onto the hardware they can and then clutter up accessibility so that really the features become sort of a carrot on a stick you’re always chasing after but never really feel like you’re getting their benefit because your process gets slowed down by trying to use them.

That’s all I’m saying. I’m not requesting that ReNoise get a-bombed back into Fast Tracker/Impulse Tracker days, not by a long shot. I’d just like to see the paradigm of older renoise interface maintained because it really does feel like they have good intentions, but aren’t quite sure how to make it work visually and via workflow.

so… i was initially going to flame you for dissing blender (not cool, seriously…) but then i kind of thought about what you’re saying some and, despite my best efforts, it made me think a bit.

blender’s stated objective is to be a one-stop solution for modeling, rigging, match-moving, post-production, compositing and cutting. so essentially it does Mudbox, C4D, After Effects, NUKE and Final Cut, as one program (excusing the selection of products competing against others). I think that the blender UI actually manages to present a pretty intelligent front end for all of these capabilities, as long as the user is willing to invest the time into properly configuring their views and workspaces. once this is done the workflow is lightning quick beyond many other tools.

i don’t think that renoise behaves this way. i think that Renoise UI actually has comparatively limited configurability. In a similar fashion to (perhaps) blender, renoise is trying to solve more of your audio production workflow needs in a single solution (plenty of stuff is obviously missing, ie: multitrack recording,nle timeline), but unlike blender these workflow components don’t really exist as separate modules that each have their own UI module within a bespoke windowing system. i would suppose that at least part of that is the result of renoise’s real-time playback requirements. whereas a program like blender can choke and chug all it wants under heavy resource-load without doing more than making an animator flinch and twitch a bit, having audio break up because you want to look at your modulation editor, sample editor, pattern editor and spectrum windows all at the same time might be kind of an auditory bringdown. all the same, it would be kind of cool to get to lay out my views with whatever components i want and make it my responsibility to manage my resources.

by the way, whinging about the layout of the default view is totally flame-worthy. it’s not like it’s hard to tweak and save views (one-right click on a panel that never goes away).