Doubts about Worlde PANDA 200 or Eagletone FAT TINY???

Raul · May 22, 2018, 9:15pm

I want to ask the community what do these two pad MIDI controllers look like?

Worlde PANDA 200

Manual:http://en.worlde.com.cn/Private/Files/45483ce26140d5dc3f63.pdf

Link:http://en.worlde.com.cn/prod_view.aspx?TypeId=72&Id=179&FId=t3:72:3

Eagletone FAT TINY

Manual:http://www.eagletone.com/pdf/EAGLETONE+FAT+TINY.pdf

Link:http://www.eagletone.com/p217887-fat-tiny

Apparently they seem to be designed for Cubase. Has anyone used any of these with Renoise? I’m interested to know if all the controls work with MIDI Input. I’m looking for a device of this style, but have at least 4 banks for the 16 pads, or more. Thus it is possible to map up to 64 pads between 4 banks. These two models only have 3 banks.

Does anyone know some similar models that I could name? These two models can be obtained for around 100€ each.

ffx · May 23, 2018, 8:57am

Surely there will be a MIDI mode in that device, so you can use it in Renoise. But you would have to “program” or reuse a driver/script to make it work like a real DAW controller. There are plenty of example scripts though, which you can learn from.

Personally I already had plenty of such devices, and I never used it, so I sold it after years of idling That concept of having a classic mixer console approach imo sucks and is made for very old people. Since my Renoise routing often is using various sends, this approach doesn’t help me either.

The only device that actually would be helpful I could think of, would look somehow like this:

This in small, with four motor faders, some buttons and endless knob, very compact, and proper value displays.

That said Renoise never really worked with the Presonus Faderport midi driver, since there are some bugs inside Renoise preventing to record automation really properly. You know that the automation thing in Renoise still is a bit rudimentary, when it comes to precision and workflow.

So my suggestion for you is: Don’t buy such device for using it in Renoise.

Raul · May 23, 2018, 11:28am

@ffx Thanks for your opinion!

I’ve been watching some MIDI controllers, and I really want to find something similar to AKAI MPK261 ,but I see it a bit expensive.This controller has 16 pads with 4 banks , so you can change directly, so you can assign up to 64 MIDI commands.This is just what I am looking for. I would prefer an “all in one” keyboard, and not have so many devices on the table.So, if later I want to expand I have more space.

I have serious doubts about this controller: M-AUDIO CODE 61 (black)

http://www.m-audio.com/products/view/code-61-black

This MIDI controller has a program (software .exe called M-Audio Code 61 Preset Editor ) to configure and save presets, which you can supposedly load inside the controller. The Alesis Vi61 has something similar.

Has anyone used the CODE 61 controller? The 16 pads could be used in several banks, 4 at least, or are only 16 pads of a bank?

I do not understand why, there being more than 16 MIDI channels, the pads can not be assigned to a channel. So there would be 16 piles x 16 MIDI channels or more to assign. Can anyone explain how CODE 61 works related to all this?Really, there’s only one bank for 16 pads?

Garrett_Wang · May 23, 2018, 4:41pm

I have the AKAI MPD218.

The pads are very sensitive for the price ( although they still wont register the lightest touch ).

I had the same concerns about having only 3 pad banks.

I know you are good at scripting in lua.

Maybe you could design something that allows keys or pads to be assigned to change to a particular renoise instrument?

That way when you play drums live you could simply press a pad or key to change instrument live and wouldnt have to worry about the 3 pad bank limitation that most of those pad controllers have ( the pad banks are only changing octaves within one renoise instrument anyway, or going up 16 notes at a time in keyzones ).

For example, if that functionality was possible through scripting, you could place a small keyboard like AKAI LPK25 ( which has 25 keys ) alongside your 16pad drumcontroller of choice, assign each key to a separate instrument and hit the keys to change instruments during live playing on the drumpads. It would allow for instrument changes like ‘instrument 4 to instrument 16 to instrument 7’, unlike the pad bank buttons where you can only go from ‘pad bank 1 to pad bank 2 to pad bank 3 back to pad bank1’. Also you could have 3 pad banks per instrument. It would also allow for different track effects and effects+envelopes or modulation per pad ( with renoise track effects, sampler fx and modulation ). Obviously you could have some global effects over all your instruments as well with effects placed in the master track. It would be so versatile for live usage. I’d really love to get that feature in renoise. (eg. C3 changes to instrument 1 …each key changes to an instrument…C5 changes to instrument 25 ).

Watch out for pad sensitivity. Alot of the pad controllers with a cheap price tag are pretty unplayable.

If not AKAI MPD218 then maybe Korg PadKontrol? They are both pretty decent and not too expensive.

Raul · May 23, 2018, 5:55pm

@lettuce , Thanks!

Yes, I am very happy as far as I have come to write tools via scripting.I recently shared the PhraseTouch tool, that allows many things to be done through MIDI Input. The problem of having 16 pads without banks, or just one bank, is that each pad is only capable of transmitting a CC message at the MIDI input.

The problem comes from the hardware, which is limited. For example, if you change the midi channel on a multi-channel MIDI keyboard, the white and black keys change channels. If there are 61 keys, and 16 channels, then you can send 976 different CC messages, 61 for each channel. But the same is not true for many MIDI keyboards with their pads, which are relegated to only one MIDI channel.

So, what I would be interested in is a pad of 16 pads integrated in a keyboard, but that could have several banks that allow sending more than 16 different CC signals. If there are 120 notes, 10 octaves, 16 pads should be able to have up to 6 banks (96 different CC messages).But they could go further, and use the MIDI channels. For example, the M-Audio CODE 61 has 22 MIDI channels (I believe).But it is not possible to assign up to 127 notes. 127/16 are almost 8 entire banks.

It would only be necessary to change the MIDI channel to change banks. But I would like someone to confirm if this is true. With configure all the notes of all the pads.

In summary, the interesting thing is that each pad can send a different MIDI CC message according to the bank used. If there are no banks, it is limited to 16 messages (I find it very poor or a limitation very to take into account).Can anyone using CODE 61 comment on this specific topic?

According to the manual, it is possible to raise or lower the octave on the pad of 16 pads. This means that you should be able to send each pad to at least 7 different messages.That would be like having 7 banks.Can someone confirm it?This is like putting 16 pads x 7, one next to the other.

Edit: According to the following demo video (8:20), it seems that it is possible to also change the midi channel for the pads.This model of MIDI keyboard seems very complete and or has a price too high. It would be necessary to know a little of people who have used it, especially the quality of the keys…

Garrett_Wang · May 23, 2018, 8:10pm

I dont know too much about midi CC messages.

Are you going to control effects with the pads while playing keys, instead of using them for drumming?

That Maudio keyboard looks nice but who knows how sensitive those pads are until you actually try it.

I like the layout ‘pads to the left of keys’ ( rather than to the right ) because you can play basslines with your right hand at the same time as drumming with the left hand. I bought a novation launchkey25 keyboard a while back. It has drumpads on it. The advertising said ‘velocity sensitive pads’, the guy in the store said they are “very sensitive”, but when I got it home and tried to drum on those pads they are so shit. Really, you must hit them so hard they are unplayable. I guess really they are only ‘clip launching buttons’.

It would be so useful for live drummers who want to change instruments ‘on the fly’ to have ‘change to instrument number xx’ mappable to any key or pad.

Someone said it would be possible with xRules. I have no clue how to use that though.

Raul · May 24, 2018, 10:42am

I dont know too much about midi CC messages.

Are you going to control effects with the pads while playing keys, instead of using them for drumming?

…

No. Basically, it would be to trigger notes.But not random notes, but completely routed notes.This means that a note will be linked to an instrument, and that instrument will be written on a specific track.

This is possible through a module called FavTouch that is inside the PhraseTouch tool. Thus, from a MIDI pad, you direct each note so that it is recorded exactly where you want it (instrument and track). And not only that. PhraseTouch has 16 note panes. And they are all mappable. In this way, it is possible to take a panel of notes, route it to a specific instrument, and also to a specific track. With just a click of the mouse you can change the track, where the notes panel will sound. Thus, it is possible to play the same instrument on specific tracks to test different chains of DSP effects.The advantage of all this is that it becomes very fast.

PhraseTouch is possibly one of the best recent tools to test notes, or even play phrases simultaneously. You can also shoot the same note from different instruments at the same time, and route them all on the same track or on different tracks. PhraseTouch can give you an idea of what can be done with scripting to fit a specific MIDI keyboard. What I want to say is that it would not be very difficult for me to create a very specific tool for a MIDI X keyboard.

And for that, apart from being able to change the MIDI channel all the black and white keys, combine that the pad of 16 pads can also do it, if possible with the push of a button, not with an operation that involves 3 steps, which is what possibly happens with the M-Audio Code 61.Possibly, this keyboard model is the best on the market in features - price.And apparently, the material quality is not bad.

There was a guy called Finnishcoffe , what has a M-Audio Code 49:https://forum.renoise.com/t/renoise-with-obs-studio-videos/48068

Put Renoise together with a good MIDI controller keyboard, and if you need to add tools with scripting, you can achieve many things.Even so, the available API needs a revision, both with the BMP textures, and with the VSTi plug-in windows. It all has to do with graphic performance. Any of these parts can annoy the workflow. That’s why I’m determined to know the limitations of the hardware. Apparently M-Audio put a lot of effort into the Code series.

Garrett_Wang · May 24, 2018, 5:29pm

No. Basically, it would be to trigger notes.But not random notes, but completely routed notes.This means that a note will be linked to an instrument, and that instrument will be written on a specific track.

This is possible through a module called FavTouch that is inside the PhraseTouch tool. Thus, from a MIDI pad, you direct each note so that it is recorded exactly where you want it (instrument and track).

This sounds like a really useful feature.

Its a shame the AKAI MPD218 ( which I own ) does not have a feature to change each pads midi channel number from the actual controller itself ( to have separate instruments mapped across the 16 pads ). You must open the AKAI MPD218 editor, which is just a longer process and a bit annoying.

Phrasetouch tool features sound useful especially if you want to play a whole drumkit live but have the bassdrum, hihat, snare, cymbals and percussion all end up in separate tracks with different track effects. You might want to use different track effects to fix up your bassdrum differently to your snare and hihat, for example.

Then again, with sampler effects and modulation per key/pad it is now possible to do all that within one instrument recorded into one track as well.

Can phrasetouch ‘change to instrument number xx’ with the press of a key or pad?

Raul · May 24, 2018, 6:05pm

Can phrasetouch ‘change to instrument number xx’ with the press of a key or pad?

No :(!There are two valueboxes that take care of it (one for instrument and other for track, for each panel of notes). But they are just the 2 controls that do not have MIDI Input. But I’m almost sure I can add it. The problem is that the maximum value is variable.At the moment it is easy to change it with the mouse (his wheel). But I will try to study it to be compatrible with MIDI Input, to use a fader or knob for each one.

The Renoise native instruments (XRNI) have effect chains for each sample. But the same does not happen with the VSTi. You can use different VSTi and direct them to specific tracks. And you can also direct several notes of the same instrument on separate tracks. It’s a matter of configuring it. Especially taking advantage of the MIDI input. In this sense, PhraseTouch is very flexible.