Gratitude Instead Of Platitude?

Hi there, thought I’d introduce myself as a relative newcomer to Renoise.

Having been an independent music maker / home-studio user for over 12 years, I’ve used all sorts of hardware / software for sampling / sequencing (MPC2000, FL, Reason, Live, Logic, etc) and I have to say that for this type of workflow Renoise is by far the most intuitive, streamlined and powerful instrument I’ve encountered. The new stable release of 2.5 adds some amazing features to an already stunning musical tool (plug-in grabber - holy sh*t, awesome!!) but yet days after the latest release there remains a constant stream of suggestions for improvements and new features when surely people should be better spending there time getting the most out of the new functionality?

I have been playing guitar / keys / bass for almost 20 years now, and as a musician one has to accept a few limitations within one’s practice of the artform, necessity is the mother of invention as they say and certain restrictions help to channel / guide the creative process. I have yet to think of a sample / synth-based musical idea that I am unable to express using the pattern commands, volume and delay column,etc and I haven’t even started to mess around with automating DSPs yet!

I guess what I’m trying to say is that I don’t see much chatter on the forum about actual musical thought processes like melody, harmony, groove, dynamics, syncopation, etc and feel that a lot of peoples gripes and problems could already be worked around if they think a bit more creatively rather than assuming that the only solution is further coding / software development.

Examples:

Beat-slicing / markers / using 09xx command: If the start of your snare / kick / whatever is not bang on the value on the hex ruler, use the hex value immediately preceeding it and offset any dead-air by putting the note on the previous line in the sequencer with a high value in the delay column. Your tracks should be absolutely riddled with delay column entries for correct timing and rhythmic flow. This gives you a resolution of 256 ticks per step so one of them is going to slot in nicely.

Audio / waveform tracks: Didn’t the team go to all the effort of integrating rewire / jack support? There are already countless DAW options for recording multi-channel audio and Renoise + Logic are perfect partners in my book, running in tandem seemlessly. Imagine a toolkit - if you were building a house you would probably want to use a screw-driver, saw, chisel, as well as your favourite hammer - even if it is a bloody great hammer! Suffice to say you don’t have to (maybe shouldn’t) do EVERYTHING in Renoise.

Anyway, I just wanted to give a couple of examples to support my previous comments and I realise part of the community-driven development of Renoise involves an open forum for users suggestions, but many users often seem to be concerned about technological specifications for the sake of it, rather than for executing well developed musical ideas to produce great compositions.

As you can probably ascertain, I am not from a tracking / demoscene background and I approach Renoise with a fresh set of eyes / ears. I hope this is not offensive to anyone and I have probably shown my relative ignorance, but thought I’d chip in my cent’s worth as sometimes it’s difficult to see the woods for the trees!

Cheers, and happy music-making everybody!

Welcome to geek world. On the other hand, if you join in on Renoise #IRC you’re more likely to find music related conversation there. I for one am big on the ‘soul’ aspect of stuff.

But really, talk talk talk talk talk so many can talk. Let the songs do the talking. If you’ve got sweet amazing ideas they’ll talk for themselves.

Gratitude comes in many forms my friend. One is payment for the software… another is providing community support… another is releasing music… and another form of gratitude just happens to be taking the time to imagine what might take Renoise to the next level of greatness. I never hear the developers complaining about community suggestions, and this is most likely because those suggestions get the minds of the developers working… out of ruts when they have creative blockages… into the minds of the end users. For the most part, the people making these suggestions have payed for Renoise… most are making music with it, otherwise they wouldn’t be asking for new features… and many of these people provide support for the community … so the reality is: They’ve already been showing gratitude.

I for one, hope that if I ever get a software development company off the ground, that my users are as active in the development process as the Renoise community is. It will make my life significantly easier to know what my clients actually want out of my software.

Not that you don’t have a point, but… what makes you think the two are mutually exclusive? I don’t know about anybody else, but I can only make music when I feel like it, yet I can ALWAYS code, I can always think of features, I can always spot bugs. So who are you to tell people’s suggestions are invalid because of stuff you’re making up about them? That’s basically all your post is. Congratulations, you’re the 5000th person on this forum going “I don’t need X or Y, so here’s some la-di-blah”.

It’s not about stuff being just “somehow possible”, it’s about stuff being elegant and comfortable and powerful. I mean, the whole advanced edit section isn’t strictly necessary, you can do that by hand and in the olden days you did. Fortunately, we can has progress. If you don’t like that, just keep using 2.5? Problem solved. No need to worry about imaginary people who go the wrong way about their music. Just use 2.5 and be happy.

So talking about the technicalities of music - instead of just doing what feels and sounds good to you - and instead talking about the technicalities of technical stuff… THAT implies lack of creativity to you? Funny how that works… how about this, the software and what you do with it are two different things?

No. YOU are assuming that someone who suggests a feature you don’t see an immediate need for hasn’t thought creatively. Maybe they have, maybe they have doing by hand something that software can do in seconds for YEARS, and finally realized, hey, if X and Y were implemented it would just be a key press away…

That’s one thing, the other is, if you think you’re showing gratitude to software by calling for a halt in development you have never programmed. Also, a suggestion is not a demand. Unlike your demand to not suggest things, for example, or your underhanded implications about people who suggested things you don’t need.

No, really? You think nobody ever thought of that? That might be good for one or two songs, but forever and ever and ever? If you can just set the sample start with a click, SAMPLE PRECISE, you don’t have to sit there for five minutes fine-tuning the delay value until it sounds absolutely perfect (or as imperfect as you want it, just to make any counter-“arguments” about how music is supposed to be random and magical obsolete).

So instead of track freezing / triggering samples where they would be at at the point in the song, one should rewire with an app which implemented that already – and has LOADS of other features (and potentially issues) one doesn’t need? Just for this thing? If you’re really serious about this, petition for a total stop of further internal effects that can be achieved by VST. Otherwise, just be glad you don’t need it, but don’t make me laugh…

…oops, too late. I image such a book written in crayons.

Yeah. So if you need a hammer, you ask your neighbour if he can radio the guy with the truck, who slowly backs up into whatever you need hammered – instead of spending a weekend to add a hammer to your toolbox? Okay, so how do we go about this process where you buy me and everyone else Logic, and upgrade any PCs that get sluggish? Cheers…

Oh really? Funny, to me it just seems that people constantly give shitty arguments against things they don’t need because they lack technical clue and/or imagination. It’s deeply engrained here, I’m sure your post will be met with enthusiasm.

Alright guys, easy now - I’ve clearly elected myself as whipping boy and committed various unforgivable noob crimes. Don’t worry I’ll keep my ill-informed opinions to myself in future, just pretty happy with the program as is. I have a 6 year-old haggered G4 powerbook running an ancient copy of logic anyway, so I’m not some moneybags wanker who expects everyone to have access to the fabulous, expensive setup that I use.

I’ll keep my mouth shut and maybe quietly post a couple tracks in the next few weeks so you can judge me on my output instead, but feel free to tear me a few more assholes in the meantime if you feel it necessary. Great to be part of the community btw, Jee-zuss…

hi there rex! :>>

remember, this is the interlans!

Yes, welcome Rex, on the path of Hex :)

Hey Rex, welcome on board.
And feel free to submit any ideas and suggestion. (If you think you can survive the critics then)

And now seriously…
If you don’t want to become a sitting duck, avoid releasing these kind of statements and specially in the same post:

There is nothing wrong with having questions going this way, but people “should” not do anything for someone who has not the widest idea what is really going on.

You don’t need to shut up imho, but rather being open for input gets you a lot further anywhere than marching in and distributing unfounded ideas.

Hi Rex!

Yeah maybe we came on a bit heavy handed there. Shows you we’re a little precious! Hi and welcome! Looking forward to seeing you songs posted on the song forums. And seeing YOU on #IRC.

Ideas like inspiration, do not wait for anyone.
Welcome to the forum. :)

Bloody hell. Give the guy a break. Hello Rex.

I have to say I partly agree with what he’s saying. Renoise 2.5 is a big step up.
I’m sure the devs would appreciate a few weeks of silent contentment from the community while they STFU and get on with making some music, but like others have said - when you come up with an idea you just have to write it down immediately before it fizzles away!

I’ve gotten so much songs/music working, since re-engaging the forums. For me the creative process extends into everything I do, as long as I do it. ;)

Don’t judge the forums by me. Besides me, uhmm, often being a cunt, this is my ONE pet peeve… really, I’m pretty sure others can confirm that… it was part reply part general venting. I’m not saying you or anyone else should approve of that, just that’s that how it is. By no means shut up, and if you can do that, don’t take it too personally.

I just hate it when “what to implement and how one could do it” gets mixed with “IF something should be implemented”. Especially since there is no need for such worries, the devs do their thing and they do it well. At least that’s how I would want my suggestions to be understood… no matter how opinionated, each Renoise release to ist just a surprise gift, and I’ve never been disappointed. Even when it’s stuff like Rewire which I don’t even use, you know. So I’m a bit defensive about this, because I suggest a lot, but I don’t expect anything of that to ever become reality.

If I can sit still when live features are being discussed (I use this thing to write and render music, and I don’t see that ever changing… but I can appreciate that people use it to jam, so I’m just silently hoping that won’t get too much focus), you can sit still when audio tracks etc. are being suggested.

Which isn’t to say there is never a reason to shoot a suggestion down, or that there can be no “bad” suggestions… but frankly, my personal outlook on this (being such a martyr, silently suffering suggestions that make my brain hurt blah blah) combined with your “hey guys, I’m a REAL musician” tone just ticked me off. It seems that every time I rant about this I get harsher though, which is not clever or fair at all. Take that into a account and just write it off as furious attack by a sociopath I guess.

And yeah, when it comes to music, Renoise ain’t the problem, it’s nowhere near being the weakest part of the chain. But again, how to use the tool and how to improve it are two different things in my arrogant opinion.

Hello,

yeah sure there are workarounds - but for those who are PRO’s that is not sufficient enough.

It is a bit like having to constantly retune your strings in your guitar, before playing the chord (when we need to add dozens of hex codes into single hits -> a work process that is not required in any other music software, when working with beats).

You see, all other software provide an easy way to move the start point of a clip (so that it wont have to be coded into the song everytime person wants to put that snare into the track), aswell as an easy way to controll the tune and envelopes of all clips.

These are the features, that are required for pro beatsmaking these days - and they are missing in Renoise - no matter what anyone says.

For a perfectionist, these workarounds really do not suffice.

You need a beat that you are sure will fit in the song before putting that in, or you need to build your track around a beat (which is not bad in all cases), to be able to use Renoise with beats productively - otherwise the limitations of the software kick in - so there is no room for “testing different soundkits etc.” on the fly - like there is in most other software.

Even the earliest samplers support a way of “tuning” all the clips of a sampled loop, so that should not really be something one needs to create workarounds for.

edit: nothing

Hey Rex :)

hahaha damn how about coming in with a bang! wel welcome rex to the proudest DAW-forum of them all ;)