I say that anybody who state that people who don’t entirely like a new release should be gotten rid of, and then also state that those users are just using warezed loops, and then conclude that those users are immature should really look into the meaning of the words immature and then irony.
Then if possible, let others have their opinion and stop being so precious.
Dude, if you care to read what I actually wrote and also take a step down from your own high horses, then you might actually appear to offer a valid point.
I’m not referring to the people who merely expected a different set of new features and were disappointed by this release. There are even alpha testers who don’t seem to like the direction Renoise has taken, and that’s just how it should be in any dynamic and thinking community - people reach different conclusions and have different opinions. I’d hate to see some kind of blind fanboyism in regard to Renoise design issues.
I’m specifically talking about the kind of people who are only being rude and disrespectful towards the Renoise team, and - by implication - also being disrespectful and rude towards all of the users who have actually spent much of their time making a strong case for such features as we see in the current 3.0 version. That’s not “different opinion”, that’s just immature behaviour. Others have also noticed this and reacted to this type of behaviour. Enough is enough.
Indeed, I hope that such users will be fewer and fewer and ultimately washed out completely because they only pollute the air, discouraging the users who actually have something constructive to say to say it. There’s a limit to how much BS we’re supposed to tolerate in these forums, and I for one am fed up with these mentalities and the amount of space and resources they occupy both here in the forums and IRL as well.
Furthermore, I’m convinced that just as much as Renoise itself intimidates and scares some people using other DAWs because of its alphanumeric workflow and higher level of abstraction, the Phrases feature introduced in the 3.0 beta increases the level of abstraction even further - thus threatening the fragile egos of lower-abstraction mentalities. Yes, I do believe this is the deeper key issue which explains why some people seem to get personally offended by this feature.
hah , that was indeed a good laugh .
Do you really believe what you just wrote ?
That is not true. Phrases like type of facility has been present in Buzz over a decade now.
In cognitive psychology it calls “straw man” type of an argument. He’s made up an image of an opponent and went on to show its complete worthlessness.
Actually for me it was pretty clear that with the ‘Pre-EQ’d loops’ phrase .xrns was more painting a picture of the worst case scenario of background for some of the bashful posts that you also must not have missed. It drives his point, about the state of the forum, which I think is not immature per se. If there is some bashing back involved it must be felt very close to reality for some readers of the message.
@genclkdiv, go EZ on the punctuation buoy. Nobody ever told you this? Almost all punctuation needs just one space, after. Like so.
With separate LPB?
I didn’t know that - can you elaborate?
The way you compose in Buzz is basically by building melodic phrases in the pattern editor, sequencing them in the sequence editor afterwards.
You can do pretty much the same in Renoise now, although there is no distinction between pattern and sequence editors here, really, both are pattern editors.
I see what you mean now, that’s what I thought you meant.
If the developers can create the phrase feature, surely they could improve the Pattern Matrix a bit more and make it work like Buzz?
If you remove the ‘s’ from the ‘https’ at the start of Soundcloud links, they appear in the thread itself - don’t know why.
It does not work the way you think, the old pattern based system is not going anywhere, it is exactly the same it was in 2.8.
The difference is, you can assign melodic phrases created with a mini pattern editor in the instrument screen to a specific keyboard note range. When the play cursor hits a note from the range, it starts playing the mentioned phrase, but the notes are not assigned to the phrases play normally.
The problem at the moment is, those notes that have melodic phrases assigned do not look any different to regular notes in the pattern editor, although I’d imagine that would get attended to rather soon.
Yes, I’ve just been playing around with the phrases, it’s an ‘extra’, I wouldn’t call it an improvement, because the fundamental ability to SEE the song layout isn’t improved at all. You have almost random notes (obviuosly they’re not random, because you choose which ones represent which phrases) representing an entire phrase - why not just copy Buzz’s sequence editor and then you’d have something that actually worked, and was clear, and easier to use in the first place? It’s as if the devs are determined to NOT do things the easy way, and come up with more and more convoluted bodges, anything as long as they don’t do it the easiest way…
Look at Buzz - I can see the names I have given each pattern, on the right hand side, at all times, and can see which keyboard button to press to insert each pattern into the sequence editor - it isn’t rocket science:
Okay - now play ‘Spot the phrase’. Which notes are phrases? How the hell can you tell! Then imagine that you’ve got four different instruments with phrases, how on earth are you going to SEE what you have put where, when you use NOTES to represent a phrase? This is just so ridiculous, how on earth did it even get off the drawing board? Just compare the screenshot of Buzz to the screenshot of Renoise. One is clear as crystal, the other is just random coloured blocks, and some notes which could be anything… unbelievable.
We need a pattern command to select phrases IMO
Please see here for discussion :
To me that is kind of the point though, you don’t need to distinguish between notes and phrases. Phrases behave like samples, so just think of it as playing samples same as you always have. Only you have even more control over these samples than before.
Did you not read my post?
You DO need to distinguish between notes and phrases. The whole idea of using notes to represent phrases is flawed. I think I explained it as clearly as possible.
All I can say is, some of you must have astounding powers of recall, to be able to create eight phrases on four different instruments, for example, and then be able to instantly remember which is which, when you see them represented as single notes, or as pattern commands… with no words allowed.
What’s wrong with the picture below? Every pattern in Buzz is virtually the same as a ‘phrase’, except that in Buzz you can actually give it a name, and see how long it is too… whatever next.
There is nothing wrong with the picture there, but you don’t get to see such hints either with VST sampler plugins, so many people have proven not to find such blindfolded key-links a dramatic hindrance .
Not that i think it is impossible to create an alternative view of what is exactly what. However:Renoise != Buzz. and i doubt it will become one.
On the positive angle of this debate, the question is:What makes Buzz incomplete that you desire Renoise to copy-cat a large stack of its features?
You could have chosen Buzz to do everything with or a paperback drum-sequencer for all i care, but apparently Buzz must be lacking something valuable that you consider Renoise the better alternative for Buzz, just that it lacks this one Buzz convenience feature…
I did read your post. Here’s what I took from it. Please tell me if I’ve misunderstood you:
- Phrases aren’t an improvement because they don’t improve your ability to see the song layout
- A single note can represent an entire phrase
- It would be easy to copy features from Buzz
- Renoise team intentionally makes things difficult to use.
Then you say you can’t tell in Renoise which notes are samples and which are phrases.
I think I understand that you would like to be able to distinguish between phrases and samples. I don’t have any experience with buzz. I suggest that you don’t make such a strong distinction between samples and phrases. Now you can program a whole phrase and play it on a single key. I did this before phrases, only I used samples. If you’ve ever used the pattern effects 0S , 0B etc then you can apply those same techniques to whole phrases. Now instead of placing a sample on a key, you place a phrase on a key. Phrases can be mapped across the keyboard and transposed just like samples. That’s what it is – a phrase sample, rather than an audio sample. You can treat both types of sample the same way.
You can follow conventions in how you create instruments by placing phrases in octave 0. You can use the white keys for notes and the black keys for phrases. You can have one phrase take up the whole keyboard. You can have lower octaves be full of phrases, and have the octaves above that play samples.
Phrases also let you write a basic set of patterns and then duplicate them to create variations. They can have different lengths and lines per beat. You can play them on top of one another in the sequencer, reverse, play from position, etc same as a sample.
I disagree that the Renoise team is intentionally making things difficult to use. I think that phrases are a simple and powerful idea done well in a way that makes sense to renoise users. Can they do more with it? I’m sure, I don’t know what they have up their sleeve. I think phrases are a clear improvement because of what they allow you to do.
Sorry, I don’t understand what you mean. You mean that you can’t enter a pattern in the Buzz Sequence Editor if it’s a VST sampler plugin? I don’t understand.
People keep saying Renoise isn’t Buzz, I never said I wanted it to be.
What makes Buzz incomplete? Just look at the feature list of Renoise compared to Buzz! Plus Buzz isn’t the most stable piece of software, isn’t really being developed.
Where did I say I wanted Renoise to copy-cat a “large stack” of its features? I only want ONE - the sequence editor.
I think you are thinking about ‘phrases’ the wrong way. Writing a song out of just Renoise phrases would be possible but would be a bit weird.
So, in Renoise I imagine most are still composing in the pattern editor just like before, but, using phrases to manipulate that composition. You’re not simply placing a bunch of little ‘loops’ made in the phrase editor on the Renoise pattern matrix as some “New Renoise way of song building”. The phrases are applying transposing, articulations, motifs, pattern commands, arps to base notes, effects and so on and so on. The note on the pattern editor does mean something: it the fking note! The phrase is just attached to that note and manipulates that note. So, i think phrases maybe work exactly backwards from what you are thinking. Not that they can’t work the way you’re (maybe) thinking, but I doubt that’s the general usage intent.
I know what you’re saying about Buzz. It works like a text based fruity loops. You make a bunch of little reusable loops of any length you want and then sequence those loops into a song on another page. This is a great way to work, too, and I like it as well. But, it’s not coming from the same direction as Renoise’s classic tracker approach.
There could be some pedantry arise from usage and meaning of words ‘phrases’ and ‘loops’ but I think we all know what is meant. And, I am just saying that Renoise phrases do not have the same purpose or intended usage as what you are calling phrases in Buzz. I think that the idea that Renoise phrases can be abused to work the other way around fairly well is just a testament to their flexibility, not an example of their ‘brokenness’.
Yes, apparently you can’t understand that I have nothing against phrases, it’s the way you enter them and VIEW them that is incorrect.
I have been using ‘phrases’ for years in Buzz, otherwise known as patterns. Phrases are ‘a tracker within a tracker’, as it clearly says on this very website.
Most people are not going to be able to view their song patterns, consisting solely of notes, and remember "C-0 is ‘Drum fill 1’, D-0 is ‘Drum fill 2’, etc.etc., when they have phrases on four instruments, eight instruments, etc. It’s ridiculous, it’s the WRONG way to represent phrases. Period.
But please, show me how you represent your phrases in the pattern of a song - make four phrases for each of eight instruments, and then see how much sense it makes.
You have various VST samplers that also offer things like sequencers or even presampled sequences which are tied down to notes.
The only hint you get about this is in the instrument name, other than that you have no direct clue in the pattern editor which note represents exactly what and many people work with these instruments.
I mean: it is not necessarily such a hassle to deal with phrases or sequences that are tied to notes → nobody complained about those situations and have found ways to work with them effectively.
If you would use Redux inside another host, you don’t get any visual cues either about what note is exactly what.
Yes sorry, i shouldn’t have said that in that manner, there are many buzz users that would gladly see various features of Buzz return in Renoise.