I didn’t know that - can you elaborate?
The way you compose in Buzz is basically by building melodic phrases in the pattern editor, sequencing them in the sequence editor afterwards.
You can do pretty much the same in Renoise now, although there is no distinction between pattern and sequence editors here, really, both are pattern editors.
I see what you mean now, that’s what I thought you meant.
If the developers can create the phrase feature, surely they could improve the Pattern Matrix a bit more and make it work like Buzz?
If you remove the ‘s’ from the ‘https’ at the start of Soundcloud links, they appear in the thread itself - don’t know why.
It does not work the way you think, the old pattern based system is not going anywhere, it is exactly the same it was in 2.8.
The difference is, you can assign melodic phrases created with a mini pattern editor in the instrument screen to a specific keyboard note range. When the play cursor hits a note from the range, it starts playing the mentioned phrase, but the notes are not assigned to the phrases play normally.
The problem at the moment is, those notes that have melodic phrases assigned do not look any different to regular notes in the pattern editor, although I’d imagine that would get attended to rather soon.
Yes, I’ve just been playing around with the phrases, it’s an ‘extra’, I wouldn’t call it an improvement, because the fundamental ability to SEE the song layout isn’t improved at all. You have almost random notes (obviuosly they’re not random, because you choose which ones represent which phrases) representing an entire phrase - why not just copy Buzz’s sequence editor and then you’d have something that actually worked, and was clear, and easier to use in the first place? It’s as if the devs are determined to NOT do things the easy way, and come up with more and more convoluted bodges, anything as long as they don’t do it the easiest way…
Look at Buzz - I can see the names I have given each pattern, on the right hand side, at all times, and can see which keyboard button to press to insert each pattern into the sequence editor - it isn’t rocket science:
Okay - now play ‘Spot the phrase’. Which notes are phrases? How the hell can you tell! Then imagine that you’ve got four different instruments with phrases, how on earth are you going to SEE what you have put where, when you use NOTES to represent a phrase? This is just so ridiculous, how on earth did it even get off the drawing board? Just compare the screenshot of Buzz to the screenshot of Renoise. One is clear as crystal, the other is just random coloured blocks, and some notes which could be anything… unbelievable.
We need a pattern command to select phrases IMO
Please see here for discussion :
To me that is kind of the point though, you don’t need to distinguish between notes and phrases. Phrases behave like samples, so just think of it as playing samples same as you always have. Only you have even more control over these samples than before.
Did you not read my post?
You DO need to distinguish between notes and phrases. The whole idea of using notes to represent phrases is flawed. I think I explained it as clearly as possible.
All I can say is, some of you must have astounding powers of recall, to be able to create eight phrases on four different instruments, for example, and then be able to instantly remember which is which, when you see them represented as single notes, or as pattern commands… with no words allowed.
What’s wrong with the picture below? Every pattern in Buzz is virtually the same as a ‘phrase’, except that in Buzz you can actually give it a name, and see how long it is too… whatever next.
There is nothing wrong with the picture there, but you don’t get to see such hints either with VST sampler plugins, so many people have proven not to find such blindfolded key-links a dramatic hindrance .
Not that i think it is impossible to create an alternative view of what is exactly what. However:Renoise != Buzz. and i doubt it will become one.
On the positive angle of this debate, the question is:What makes Buzz incomplete that you desire Renoise to copy-cat a large stack of its features?
You could have chosen Buzz to do everything with or a paperback drum-sequencer for all i care, but apparently Buzz must be lacking something valuable that you consider Renoise the better alternative for Buzz, just that it lacks this one Buzz convenience feature…
I did read your post. Here’s what I took from it. Please tell me if I’ve misunderstood you:
- Phrases aren’t an improvement because they don’t improve your ability to see the song layout
- A single note can represent an entire phrase
- It would be easy to copy features from Buzz
- Renoise team intentionally makes things difficult to use.
Then you say you can’t tell in Renoise which notes are samples and which are phrases.
I think I understand that you would like to be able to distinguish between phrases and samples. I don’t have any experience with buzz. I suggest that you don’t make such a strong distinction between samples and phrases. Now you can program a whole phrase and play it on a single key. I did this before phrases, only I used samples. If you’ve ever used the pattern effects 0S , 0B etc then you can apply those same techniques to whole phrases. Now instead of placing a sample on a key, you place a phrase on a key. Phrases can be mapped across the keyboard and transposed just like samples. That’s what it is – a phrase sample, rather than an audio sample. You can treat both types of sample the same way.
You can follow conventions in how you create instruments by placing phrases in octave 0. You can use the white keys for notes and the black keys for phrases. You can have one phrase take up the whole keyboard. You can have lower octaves be full of phrases, and have the octaves above that play samples.
Phrases also let you write a basic set of patterns and then duplicate them to create variations. They can have different lengths and lines per beat. You can play them on top of one another in the sequencer, reverse, play from position, etc same as a sample.
I disagree that the Renoise team is intentionally making things difficult to use. I think that phrases are a simple and powerful idea done well in a way that makes sense to renoise users. Can they do more with it? I’m sure, I don’t know what they have up their sleeve. I think phrases are a clear improvement because of what they allow you to do.
Sorry, I don’t understand what you mean. You mean that you can’t enter a pattern in the Buzz Sequence Editor if it’s a VST sampler plugin? I don’t understand.
People keep saying Renoise isn’t Buzz, I never said I wanted it to be.
What makes Buzz incomplete? Just look at the feature list of Renoise compared to Buzz! Plus Buzz isn’t the most stable piece of software, isn’t really being developed.
Where did I say I wanted Renoise to copy-cat a “large stack” of its features? I only want ONE - the sequence editor.
I think you are thinking about ‘phrases’ the wrong way. Writing a song out of just Renoise phrases would be possible but would be a bit weird.
So, in Renoise I imagine most are still composing in the pattern editor just like before, but, using phrases to manipulate that composition. You’re not simply placing a bunch of little ‘loops’ made in the phrase editor on the Renoise pattern matrix as some “New Renoise way of song building”. The phrases are applying transposing, articulations, motifs, pattern commands, arps to base notes, effects and so on and so on. The note on the pattern editor does mean something: it the fking note! The phrase is just attached to that note and manipulates that note. So, i think phrases maybe work exactly backwards from what you are thinking. Not that they can’t work the way you’re (maybe) thinking, but I doubt that’s the general usage intent.
I know what you’re saying about Buzz. It works like a text based fruity loops. You make a bunch of little reusable loops of any length you want and then sequence those loops into a song on another page. This is a great way to work, too, and I like it as well. But, it’s not coming from the same direction as Renoise’s classic tracker approach.
There could be some pedantry arise from usage and meaning of words ‘phrases’ and ‘loops’ but I think we all know what is meant. And, I am just saying that Renoise phrases do not have the same purpose or intended usage as what you are calling phrases in Buzz. I think that the idea that Renoise phrases can be abused to work the other way around fairly well is just a testament to their flexibility, not an example of their ‘brokenness’.
Yes, apparently you can’t understand that I have nothing against phrases, it’s the way you enter them and VIEW them that is incorrect.
I have been using ‘phrases’ for years in Buzz, otherwise known as patterns. Phrases are ‘a tracker within a tracker’, as it clearly says on this very website.
Most people are not going to be able to view their song patterns, consisting solely of notes, and remember "C-0 is ‘Drum fill 1’, D-0 is ‘Drum fill 2’, etc.etc., when they have phrases on four instruments, eight instruments, etc. It’s ridiculous, it’s the WRONG way to represent phrases. Period.
But please, show me how you represent your phrases in the pattern of a song - make four phrases for each of eight instruments, and then see how much sense it makes.
You have various VST samplers that also offer things like sequencers or even presampled sequences which are tied down to notes.
The only hint you get about this is in the instrument name, other than that you have no direct clue in the pattern editor which note represents exactly what and many people work with these instruments.
I mean: it is not necessarily such a hassle to deal with phrases or sequences that are tied to notes → nobody complained about those situations and have found ways to work with them effectively.
If you would use Redux inside another host, you don’t get any visual cues either about what note is exactly what.
Yes sorry, i shouldn’t have said that in that manner, there are many buzz users that would gladly see various features of Buzz return in Renoise.
It will mean nothing to you when you have fifty different phrases, spread across ten different instruments.
But the classic tracker approach is a time wasting, laborious method of songwriting, which is precisely why Oskari created Buzz the way he did, and precisely why Fruity Loops used clips, and Orion, etc.etc. What is the Pattern Matrix, if not an attempt to IMPROVE the classic tracker approach? So why are so many people terrified of finally having the BEST method of data entry?
So phrases aren’t supposed to be used to enter notes into the phrase pattern and then replay that phrase of notes using one note in the main pattern editor?
yeah lack of “phrases” or independent patterns is why i usually turn to sunvox, especially for putting together an arrangement.imo, the coolest/useful thing to do with phrases it to use them for “automation” that is use one phrase for notes and use other for any effects. makes it easy and fun to mix and match them.
an option like “use phrase name” in the editor in place of the note would be useful. maybe if you didn’t give it a name it’d default to the note name?
colors or a color of the notes that triggered phrases in the pattern editor would help.
the biggest problem i have with them, is that it’s not very tracker like to make phrases now. I’m not finding it easy to get into “the zone”. you have to “menu dive”, resize the phrase zone with your mouse and right click. i think a track to phrase command would make a lot of sense. then you could make your tracks as you always do, turn it into a phrase, clear the track, or switch patterns and make another. or pattern to phrase would be cool too. maybe this could be an alternate take on “capture instrument” and “auto-capture instrument” (add another key modifier) ?
then again, i think the pattern sequence matrix still needs some love too. maybe if that was fleshed out some and the phrase editing took place there? i mean, phrases are linked to instruments not per sample or keymaps, so it feels strange there to me, but maybe it’s there because of the upcoming plugin, so that the plugin users can use a tracker?
I’ve never used them - but that in no way invalidates what I am saying - if those particular VSTs had some way of entering a name, and displaying that in the sequence, I’m sure that would be a help to the users. (Obviously that’s impossible, but two wrongs don’t make a right. Just because people manage with such VSTs, doesn’t mean it’s ideal. Using note values to represent an entire phrase is the worst thing possible. Why not just a number, ‘1’, ‘2’, ‘3’, etc. It would be equally as useless and unfriendly.
Precisely! That doesn’t mean it’s a good thing!
Here is the solution:
It does not invalidate your idea no and it was also not the purpose to invalidate your idea;
The way i personally see it is this:If i get used to such feature (if it really would exist), i would probably feel decapitated if i would have to work in an environment that would be lacking it. I rather pick a workflow that works the same in every host, than have a convenient one that cripples me as soon as i have to work with something else.
I wouldn’t do that unless there was some design behind it, and surely I would remember the design?
Well, that’s an argument but I don’t think it’s the same one.
I would ‘write’ the song in the pattern editor. Maybe for convenience, one could attach a riff or motif and to an octave and use it compositionally and in a melodic way, letting the phraser transpose it for me as needed (can Buzz transpose your phrases for you based on an entered note? Well, probably through some peer machine, still cool stuff though). But, why am I going to write the whole song like this? Not me, anyway. I would lean on the melodic and rhythmic side of the phraser more as an infinite arpeggiator and variator and randomizer and maybe like the ‘fill’ buttons on some old drum machine. That, to me, would be playing up it’s strengths. Perhaps, I would use it as plain melodic or beat ‘clip player’ for only a small handful of very often repeated things.
Of course, I could be all wrong about the phraser.
well, i like buzz (been awhile since i’ve used it though), but i’m not super into doing it like buzz. 
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names would be okay as a reminder, but personally coloring the background row of the editor or matrix - up to the length of the phrase? would suit me. i just need a slight reminder, if anything, not names per say.
imo, the really interesting thing about phrases now how they interact with (pattern) effects. like now, you can use less patterns and jam on mutes of tracks containing phrases, that effect other tracks and … it’s awesome! i don’t want to “drag n drop” phrases to arrange a song. what i like about renoise over, for example, sunvox is that you can use the tracker editor to sequence your phrases or just play them via MIDI! if anything i’d like slightly more abstraction.
anyway, for me it’s the creation of phrases that feels slightly clunky (compared to the rest of the renoise experience, working with the editor proper is great) not arranging them.
(and to be clear i love this update! thanks devs. /> )