I am wondering if anybody can tell me if working in a track at 6,12 or 24 lpb but plotting the beat as if it were 4,8 r 16 lpb would have any notable effects on the swing or groove of the track,or do triplet lpb’s only have an audible effect when conforming to 6,12 or 24 lines being highlighted???
Why not simply try it? It will only take you a few moments to create a test pattern to see how it sounds.
I’ll save you the trouble anyway: If you’re working at 12LPB and you put 16th notes on every 3rd pattern line, the song groove will not work correctly.
Groove expects a ‘regular’ LPB setting of 4, 8, 16, etc.
If you want to use more interesting LPB settings such as 12 LPB, then you’ll need to apply your groove manually to each note via the delay column instead.
Now thats interesting because setting say 12 or 24 lpb and using every 3rd line as the grid immediately gives a triplet ‘jazzy’ feel.Forget i mentioned groove it confuses things,i simply meant the natural groove a 12 lpb or 24 lpb setting gives while using every 3rd line as a grid.Im wondering if using 12 lpb say has an audible effect if your using every 4th line as the grid.Im asking this because i cant trust my ears anymore atm,i seem to have tangled myself up by hours of tracking
If you work at 12 LPB then you can get perfect 16th notes positioned on every 3rd pattern line. This is equivalent to working at 4 LPB and positioning notes on every pattern line, or working at 8 LPB and positioning notes on every 2nd pattern line. In all cases it will result in perfect 16th notes.
At 12 LPB you can get perfect triplet notes positioned on every 4th line. You can achieve the same result by working at 4 LPB or 8 LPB, but it will obviously require some clever use of note delay to position notes at the correct points in the time.
Regardless of your LPB setting, there is no ‘natural groove’ to speak of. The LPB setting simply divides a beat into a certain number of precise pattern line intervals. Assuming that you have groove disabled and you have not applied any kind of note delays, then the notes will not have any kind of groove or timing variations. Any variations you do hear (ie. the ‘jazzy’ feel) are probably psychological and simply in your head (It definitely happens sometimes).
oh man,see this gets confusing,its why i have to ask(i have to disagree btw)i will upload a wip in a minute and show you what i mean,the groove is extremely disjointed and jazzy sounding,it will have the natural groove im talking about.But what i want to know is if i use every 4th line but maintain a 6,12,24 lpb will this lpb setting effect the track in anyways(presides envelope filters)
btw i think youve answered my original question which is ‘no’ but il upload this track so u can hear this weird groove
http://soundcloud.com/lungbutter13/tetra-snares-w-i-p
ok here it is,its only a w.i.p. so never mind if it sounds crappy and bare.
sound funky indeed, love it…
i was wondering if you want to use 3/4 shouldn’t one also adjust the amount of rows ? like 96 rows instead 64… ? what did you use in this example?
Now that would be telling 
.Yes in this case i have changed the pattern length to 84… 
The instrument envelopes run at a fixed rate of 24 ticks/points per beat, so they are linked to the BPM, but not actually linked to LPB.
Things like LFO Frequency will obviously be affected by different LPB settings, since the Frequency itself is measured in Lines Per Cycle. Other things like the Line Sync mode in the Delay effect will also be affected.
Certain pattern commands like retrigger, pitch slide, arpeggio, etc. are mainly affected by your TPL setting, but they will also be affected by LPB simply because the pattern lines are running at a different overall speed.
Definitely quite a few things you need to keep an eye on, especially if you’ve started the song at a certain LPB and then decide to change it later.
It’s definitely a very interesting rhythmic pattern. Sounds great, actually 
But I think the ‘groove’ you’re hearing is not really coming from your LPB setting or anything like that; it’s simply the structure of your pattern. You’re working in a kind of septuple meter time signature here, ie. 7/4. Your notes actually have a very fixed timing with no real swing or groove applied (that I can detect), but it’s just this odd time signature that immediately gives it a different feeling. I think in general we’re simply not used to hearing these types of rhythms, so it immediately sounds strange or unique when we hear it. In reality it’s just the same old 16th notes we already know and love, arranged in a slightly more interesting shape
Here’s a quick edit of your tune to highlight what I mean (just in case anyone is like ‘wtfmate?’):
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/24767355/toybox-tetra-snares-7-4.mp3
Also, you have to multiply every Delay device ‘line sync’ value by 3 
And I’ve noticed that the Tap Tempo keyboard shortcut from ‘more shortcuts’ will assume you’re gonna make a triplet track.
Sorry dblue but thats not it,EVERY track that i make is in a non 4/4 time sig so i am at home with weird time,syncopation and dysjunct rythm,but whats happening here is the fact that i plotted the beat using 3 lines instead of 4 and applied it with 12 lpb,i have countless numbers of tracks in varying degrees of asymetric rythm structure but its only when i apply this technique that i get this sound.I DONT NEED A BEATCOUNT!!! lol but thanks tho 
If you leave the values in degrees of 2 you can get some really cool rythms goin on.I always thought the envelopes were affected by lpb,il have to remember that.
I have another strange one for you dblue,why is it that when a 4/4 loop is set to sync with 264 lines that the loop can continue to use the regular slice commands i.e. s00 - s10 -s20 -s30 e.t.c and not be out of sync,im aware that this is 8 lines above 256 but it doesnt work the other way i.e. 256 - 8.This one is really confusing me because i want to know what is going on here as i manged to make a very interesting beat using this technique.
Sorry, I wasn’t trying to take the piss or anything. I just wanted to share my observations.
Anyway, let me just re-state what I said earlier:
- At 4 LPB = Every pattern line is precisely one 16th note
- At 8 LPB = Every 2nd pattern line is precisely one 16th note
- At 12 LPB = Every 3rd pattern line is precisely one 16th note
- Etc.
There is absolutely no difference between them in terms of their timing. Assuming that you have no song groove enabled and you do not have any note delays applied, then the timings will be identical. Changing your LPB does not introduce any kind of groove or variation in the timing in this sense.
I don’t even know if this is what you’re referring to in the first place, but here’s a quick example song anyway that will hopefully prove my point:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/24767355/dblue-lpb-test.xrns
This song plays a very simple 4/4 pattern with a kick drum and a 16th note percussion line. There are patterns in a variety of different LPB settings, ranging from 4 LPB to 19 LPB (I got bored after that point). Hopefully you can agree that they all sound exactly the same in terms of their timing.
Whatever you’re experiencing by using 12 LPB instead of some other setting, I believe it must be coming from something else.
You’re just lucky I guess? 
I really have no idea which loop you might be using, so it’s difficult to say anything for sure. But I have personally experienced similar things anyway. Sometimes the hits/elements of the loop will still line up nicely with the slice markers, even when using a strange sync value. But I can find plenty of examples where this doesn’t work at all. Just depends on the sample I guess.
No i totally agree with everything you said but it doesnt account for the weird rythm structure,the every 3rd line DOES,however if every 3rd line in a 12 lpb pattern is a 16th note,why am i getting this bizzare rythm that takes place under no other circumstances,thats whats puzzling me?
You’re just lucky I guess?
I really have no idea which loop you might be using, so it’s difficult to say anything for sure. But I have personally experienced similar things anyway. Sometimes the hits/elements of the loop will still line up nicely with the slice markers, even when using a strange sync value. But I can find plenty of examples where this doesn’t work at all. Just depends on the sample I guess.
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It works with multiple samples 
so its a very strange one…
It could be that the tail in the loop is “wrong” but happens to work for you, no need to fix something that works for you.
I’ve used 12lpb to be able to switch between the feeling of 4/4 and 6/8 liberally, it’s a good technique. Although tempo and lpb are there as tools to help you, there are no rules. Use your ears and make sure the result sounds right 
I have been tracking at 12 lpb for a while now, sometimes 24 for slower tempo stuff with a pattern length of 96 or 192. I set the line hightlight to 6 lpb to see the 4/4 (also save it as a song template). This is basically the same as 8 lpb on a 64 line pattern with highlighting 4 lpb but with the advantage of adding some easy triplets. Also putting a sound on 4/4 and cutting it with 3/4 can be interesting.
It works for multiple samples and all tails are fine,i dont want to ‘fix’ it i want to understand it in order to further manipulate loops in unusual ways.
Sync value should make absolutely no difference to the Slice positions! 0S80 is always going to be exactly half way through the loop, oS40 quater the way through etc, etc, which you have it set to sync to 64 lines or 233 or some random number. More confusing that you seem to be saying it ever doesn’t work correctly…
LPB has no direct affect on note position or groove. If you play a track at LPB=12 and BPM=120 it should sound 100% identical to playing it at LPB=8 and BPM=160, as the lines will scroll at the same rate, assuming you have nothing set under Groove in Song Settings. Obviously any third party plugins that rely on BPM value being received, rather that native ones where you set number of lines, will be affected by such a change though.
You say you use 84 lines, with a LPB or 6 or 12 you are going to be talking 7/4 time if using your 3/6/12 as main beat lines. If you were still to program using 2/4/8 lines you are going to have an even weirder time signature. Something like 21/8 if my brain is functioning correctly… But everything is still syncopated to the grid.
no you misunderstand,the slice positions are always the same…everyone knows that,im talking about beat programming.Please no more statements about time sigs!!!I fully comprehend them,inside and out,here is my soundcloud you can check it out if you dont believe me!!!
My apologies to anyone who has been utterly confused its extremely hard to explain what happens,im not articulate enough to convey it.Heres some example of snares doing what im describing and what im trying to fully understand,The beat programming is based on 3s and im wondering why this has such a dramatic effect on the rythm.
polyrhythm? at a certain point of swing 3/4(6/8) and 4/4 can be matched up and played together. it’s the archetypical texas shuffle/drum machine swing/minor blues swing. or maybe i heard it wrong. it kind of hurt my ears.