Is this still not possible? I remember seeing a thread about the same issue from 2008 (here).
Basically I want the possibility to make two envelope points overlap so that when it reaches that point the change is instantaneous rather than starting to gradually drop/fall on the line before it. For example to create a saw-shaped envelope. The funny thing is that it is already possible if you split up your pattern. Not very practical and it’s going to make your layout extremely messy, but it works:
As you can see, the top point in the middle is on line 64, which is, by definition, the same timing as line 0 in the next pattern (on a 0-63 pattern length). Renoise handles this exactly as expected. The change is instantaneous just like with points. The problem is you cant do this in the middle of a pattern! Also, for obvious reasons this workaround doesn’t work on instrument envelopes.
If I’m missing some kind of hidden feature, please do tell, but if it isn’t possible, it seems like a no-brainer to me. I can think of a million use-cases for envelopes like this. It should also be very simple to implement, because the functionality is already there.
Ahh, I didn’t know that. Thanks. That is definitely a decent solution as far as automation goes, but it doesn’t fix the issue related to instrument envelopes as far as I can tell.
I still think overlapping points is a better solution because it will be actually instant, rather than just very fast. It is also much more intuitive in my opinion and it would ensure compatibility with IT and XM envelopes which can of course have instant changes. If these are imported, Renoise ignores one of the points completely.
IMHO this overlapping is simply impossible. An envelope is a function over time, and functions can’t have two different values at the same place. Think about a hardware slider or knob. You can’t have two different positions at the very same time.
Yeah, guis that do allow this, don’t perform any different than what Renoise does when using the closest time-gap.
But perhaps the time-gap between the current and next point can be narrowed a bit when allowing the visual idea of ïnstant “change”.
As I said in my first post, it is already possible, but only at the end/start of a pattern. The meaning of overlapping points isn’t to have two differnet positions at the same time. It is to have position1 before reaching the point, and position2 as soon as you reach it, without a transistion. Overlapping points is what most DAWs use, including old-school trackers.
Of course, but it would be as instant as with “Points”.
Only Taktik could tell us if the interpolation between points using Linear or Cubic modes calculates any more points that having it in points mode with an entry on every of the 256 divisions per line. I suspect not though. In which case having it in Linear (or Cubic for that matter) mode and entering a point, then one at the same value a 1/256th point before one with a change in value would be 100% identicle to having used Points mode in the first place.
Although it is a little easier to draw it, especially when zoomed out and with some Snap/Quantise settings, if two points per position are allowed but I don’t think there would ever actually be any difference in terms of sound.
“An envelope is a function over time, and functions can’t have two different values at the same place”
The OP is really looking for something like f(x)=x-int(x) – there is an instantaneous change in the value of f(x) from 0.999999… to 0 at the boundaries. (Being able to specify envelopes as a mathematical function could actually be an interesting idea.)
To add my 2c, in FL Studio, they have a very good envelope editor, which allows two points at the same time. I don’t know the maths behind it, but it seems to work for them. Another neat thing is changing a segment of the envelope from linear to curved by dragging the middle of the line.
Hm… Ok, now I get the idea.
I always took it for granted, if I have e.g. panning set in point 63.227 to 50R and in point 63.228 set to 50L, there IS an instant change of the value in a panning variable without any interpolation in between. (Be it points or lines or curves)
There already is a way, although it’s a hidden device and a little bit buggy as of 2.7.2 (although at least one bug has apparently been fixed for next release.)
f+d+K: That’s basically what I’ve been trying to say my assumption is too. Although if you have Snap=Grid then you have to zoom right in to be able to set the two points next to each other, if the GUI would let you put the points on the same position, even though it would still behave like this, it would be easier to enter these immediate changes into the Automation Editor.
I compared using points to the shortest possible curve on 32 bpm and the delay is the same for both: 4.5 ms (220 samples). So while unsnapping or zooming isn’t as user friendly, it is what I’m looking for functionality wise.
But that’s only automation. Instruments envelopes are still broken and instant change is impossible.