Lfo Device Polarity + Offset

Not necessarily. The offset is, after all, just another value added to both min and max. With the offset slider set to 2db, It makes innate sense that the overall output value will be offset positively by 2db. I don’t think there is any real cognitive dissonance here.

Offset can’t be expressed in the destinations value. The destination is not always linear, it can use whatever scaling the LFO does not and can not know about.

Curses! Nonetheless, i think that little bit of clarity lost is a tradeoff worth making.

Consider this…

Both configurations here would create identical output.

Each system obviously have its pros and cons, so it would be nice to keep both of them for different tasks. I’m wondering… could there simply be a toggle switch to change between the two modes, so that we can have the best of both worlds?

You can do everything you can with Min/Max using Offset/Amplitude.

You can NOT do everything you can with Offset/Amplitude using Min/Max. (Unless you add the ability to use value beyond the range of the destination, which would just be strange. Not even a capped fader would solve it although you are effectively doing this at either the minimum or maximum extreme of the destination parameter.)

I do seem to be the only one who wants to keep the current way and thinks it’s more useful apart from Taktik himself though…

EDIT: But obviously all up for a second device or toggle button as long as the original is kept.

Yep, this is pretty much true, although occasionally I do find myself needing to use some pretty weird values, ie: offset = 33.731%, amplitude = 67.462%, which can be a bit frustrating and time-consuming. All because those values happened to line up nicely with another parameter in another device. In those cases, it would be much easier if precise min/max values could be entered instead, and there’d be a lot less wasted time trying to find the magic values for offset/amplitude.

Of course. I would want to keep both modes in there as well. They both have their uses.

The misconception here is that min/max are actually different from amplitude/offset. Min/Max are just brackets that define a median, which becomes the offset, and the difference multiplied by .5 becomes the amplitude. Additionally offsetting the calculated median will have exactly the same effect as offsetting the LFO as it currently works, only now you have even more flexibility with what is effectively two automatable offsets.

The core functionality of the LFO is for the most part unchanged. This is an interface alteration.

I’ll write another Flash example later that implements min/max AND amplitude/offset, and you can judge for yourself then.

Yeah please write one that shows how you can use min/max to give the same output as having offset at zero and amplitude at 100% on a sine wave. this will effectively give you full range deflection but will stay at zero for half the time. Would be the same as having a user defined waveform with a sine positive half covering full rang at start and then half at zero level (although something is making me think the sine in Renoise is anti-phase. Actually just looked and for some strange reason just the square wave is…)

Now these can be done with the Custom shapes but what if you want a random variation which has a tendency to lean towards either the maximum or minimum value? You can used a skewed offset no problem, but impossible with max/min entries.

Easy. You drag the offset slider to -50% :stuck_out_tongue: Again, i’m actually proposing we keep an offset slider. This isn’t just min/max, it’s min/max/amplitude/offset. At min 0% max 100% there should be literally no difference from the current LFO.

Bah. I really need to update that flash example now haha. I get all the criticism that has come and i agree that there is flexibility to amp/offset that simple min/max won’t have, so i’m looking for a happy medium that will allow for esoteric (unintuitive) effects AND allow those of us that just want the job done already to get the benefits of a min/max range.

To be perfectly honest, the LFO offset is somewhat of a dark horse to begin with. I can’t recall an LFO working like this in any other software or hardware. In other solutions, the offset is defined by the initial state of the modulated device. This is the definition of a modulator really: You change an existing value, you don’t forcibly set it, which is what Renoise does. If Renoise would execute LFO modulations after checking the current slider position of the targeted parameter, newAlteredValue = oldUnalteredValue+modulation*range, the offset parameter wouldn’t be needed in the first place, and we wouldn’t be having this discussion.