MIDI timing in Renoise is bad when getting sequenced externally (by Cirklon 2)

Sorry , I can 't use renoise to use the loopback sending data to another host , it ain’t working
Regular midi out behaves fine
Shouldn’t we find a solution for the first problem :slight_smile: , midi input jitter , why is renoise the only program behaving this (jittery) way while they all use the same audio driver ?

About the cirklon , I received it two weeks ago but it was slightly damaged around the corners ( ups guy dropped it )
I decided to return it for a diagnostic check and cosmetic surgery :slight_smile: , the new on will arrive in a few days …so can not test cirklon at the moment

Edit , ok got it working …will report soon

I’m not trying to use this as a workaround, but I’m using this in order to replicate the problem with as less dependencies as possible.

With or without a Loopback device. Have you checked this? Sorry for repeating myself, but I never got an answer for this.

Have you tried varying the Audio Latency in your tests? What is the Audio Latency in Renoise in your tests. What’s the Audio latency in your other Test DAWs?

Like I have said , I can only use one driver at the time or at least one program that’s audible
They all use the same assio 4 all driver at a bufffer size of 512 samples
In the last test( your file ) I launced architect first so I can hear the output (using short microtinc sound ) , then renoise to send midi over loopback to architect
Then I used renoise standalone and loaded microtonic being triggered by the pattern data
Here’s the result , they are different , the midi over loopback is again not consistent
First instrument : called direct record in renoise (no loopback ) is consistent
Second file is not
here you go.xrns (3.2 MB)

Edit .changing the buffer size in architect ( as a receiver ) does not improve the timing , changing the buffer size in renoise ( as midi send) is not even possible since it crashes when trying to do so ( renoise is NOT using the audio driver ) only loopback out

The loopback causes a lot of issues , now my integra midi and audio drivers are gone , even after a reboot !
Which is why I never was a fan of these devices in the first place , need to tackle this problem first

I’m sorry if I’m repeating myself here, but can you also replicate that lowering the latency also lowers the jitter amount?

I’ve now also split the VSTi MIDI timing problem into a new thread: Unstable timing (jitter) of VSTi MIDI routed events

This is a different topic (timing of internally routed MIDI events), so it should be tested and fixed separately from the original topic.

The audio latency in Loomer architect ( as midi host ) is around 11ms in loomer , using asio 4 all
Changing latency does not improve timing .
Since loomer is the host and is using the driver , I can not adjust the latency in renoise …trying to do so crashes renoise .

You got me wrong. This is about “MIDI timing in Renoise is bad when getting sequenced externally (by Cirklon 2)”

So no other host should be running. Only Renoise and Cirklon?

Well you probably won’t believe me but here goes
I received my cirklon yesterday ( I sended it back because there were some cosmetic issues ) and now it has a faulty encoder , I need to send it back (again ) to Berlin .
So for the moment , no hardware sequencing from cirklon . will probably take 2 weeks to get a new one

HI Taktik , how is it going ?
Any news about the midi timing improvements when renoise is a vst host ?
Perhaps a beta upload ?

p.s. why did you move the thread ?
It was about midi in , cirklon ( or any other hw seq.) into renoise
Not about internal mid routing

Could you please do the same test without Loomer - just Renoise - with varying latencies, now that your device is back?

Sorry. Moved it back now…

O.k . did some tests , it seems the smaller the buffer size the more accurate .
A low 64 samples being the best , while things get progressively worse from 512 samples with a high step speed ( 1/32nd-1/64 th notes ) , while other hosts like loomer and reaper stay accurate at 512 samples buffersize
test signal =microtonic
Example a pattern with steps 1/64 @2048 buffer sounds stable , but the steps are not really 1/64 …they are somewhere in between 1/64 and 1/32 ( see screenshot 1 ) where files are alligned
Screen shot 2 shows 1/64 and 1/32 nd both @ 64 samples …and acurate timing
Here’s the file with the descriptions of the used buffer size and the sequencer step length ( cirklon )
screesnhot 1
screesnhot 2

Could you please let me know how exactly you are testing this?

Cirklon is sending out a periodic MIDI event pulse train.
Renoise is receiving it. How are the events played back in Renoise - is a sample triggered?
How do you record the output of Renoise and Cirklon to compare them?

As I tried to explain above, real-time MIDI input always is received and processed by DAWs once at the start of an audio buffer, which usually is as big as the audio card latency. So the latency basically quantizes all incoming events by the latency.

When recording such events, and the events are timestamped, the events can be backdated into the DAWs timeline. When such events are played back live, they can not, as they happened in the past (well, except the entire MIDI stream is delayed by a whole buffer, but this usually is worse).

So smaller buffer sizes do improve the timing of real-time played events in general, and this should be consistent in all DAWs. From my tests Reaper behaves the same here as Renoise. Larger audio buffers = More sloppy realtime-MIID playback timing. Same with Ableton Live. I haven’t tested Loomer though.

When comparing different DAWs, please use exactly the same audio settings and preferably ASIO on Windows. With DirectSound things may work a bit different.

Am I amazed you’re asking this
I have explained each and every step of the process since the beginning .
–Use of the Cirklon and the ROland integra
-Cirklon is sending midi , it’s playing a pattern at tempo 120 bpm with various pattern step lengths ( see provided files ) 16th steps , 32 steps , 64 etc …this is the same as changing the lpb in renoise.

I don’t record the midi stream in renoise , I record the audio output of the instrument triggered by midi , for recording midi in renoise , renoise’s sequencer should be running and this is NOT the case in any of the test I have provided

-The roland integra is used as a midi interface , the serial ‘MIDI OUT 1’ of the cirklon is going into the serial 'MIDI IN’of the Roland integra , then the usb out of the Roland integra is used to send midi to renoise and also functions as an AUDIO interface

  • I can also bypass the Itegra as a midi interface , and used the cirklon USB midi out to connect to the pc, whhich I will do in the future ( Atm I just don’t have a spare usb cable )
    -The integra is thus also used as an audio interface .

—The use of renoise
Under no circumstances in the test examples is ANYTHING sequenced in renoise , it purely funtions as a vst host
I just load up an instrument ‘microtonic’ set to pitch mode and NOT using the sequencer at all , so it functions as a synth
I then choose the approprate midi input channel to which the vst instrument responds and press play on the cirklon , Renoise is NOT playing …the cirklon is
I can then easily record the audio output of Renoise’s masterbus by pressing record in the sample editor .
The composite files are manually copied pasted files , sample aligned to show the differences between different step legths ( the screenshots in the previoius example , comparing 32 nd against 64 etc…)
The other files are pure audio recordings and are not altered in any way , just pure screenshots of the sample editor .
–Audio driver—
I have not used directx , only asio 4 all
And sorry taktik , but renoise does not behave as accurate as repear , it’s sloppy with a buffer size of 512 samples and 32-64th step length , reaper and Loomer architect passes with flying colours with the exact same buffer size
See the verry first example of this thread
I really have the feeling we’re walking in circles here , if you want to get to the bottom of this there is no way around then to grab a hardware sequencer and do the tests

Using a renoise instrument instead of a vst instrument yields the same result
Here’s a renoise instrument , sequenced at 120 bpm , 16th step size ( Renoise is NOT playing , the cirklon is )
Test example : sine wave like sound with adsr envelope , instant attack
Assio all @ 512 sample bufer size
It’s sloppy as hell
Processing: Sloppy.wav…
Slopp.xrns (878.8 KB)

I can load up a sampler in reaper or loomer , and it will be much tighter
If renoise behaves sloppy at 512 samples buffer size while other hosts do not , we can say that the problem lies within renoise , no ?

New info
Used the cirklon usb out midi out straight to pc ,
Same ( bad result ) at 512 buffer size samples in renoise

In my tests Ableton Live and Reaper behave the same way: The higher the audio latency, the sloppier the passed through real-time MIDI playback gets.

I’ve tried to explain why this is happening here:

But Bitwig is not affected in Midi input precision at all. I am pretty sure that Ableton and S1 here will show the same result. So obviously the midi is buffered in another thread/process whatever, which is not dependent on audio buffer at all. For example macos has the “midiserver” process running all the time. I would guess that the coremidi api then provides a method to get the past midi buffer over a time frame, so then you would fill in all the notes accurately for the last audio buffer time frame. Same then for the output, once the audio buffer filling happens you would need to fill the coremidi midi out buffer, or something. And for windows, there would be a similar mechanism.

I never programmed such a thing, and this is not intended to critize your work, but I think your above statement can’t be true.

Also maybe I am mixing up things here, but since you mentioned midi INPUT above, I am responding here. Since Renoise already can accurately record midi, only with a time offset then, why the compensation then messes those timings up?