Missing Reason Synth Parameters in *MIDIControlDevice

I am using Renoise 2.01 B4 with Reason 4.01 in Windows XP 32-bit. Renoise is the Master, Reason as a slave.

It appears that some Reason instrument parameters are not correct in the *Midi-Control Device CC drop down. For example, when using Rewire with Thor:

  • “Osc 1 Param B”, “Osc 1 Param C” and equivalent parameters for Osc 2 and 3 do not appear in the drop down list.

  • There are CC values that do not appear to map to anything, like CC 00, CC 03, etc. Changing these values had no noticeable affect in Thor.

Please let me know if you need additional information.

Though I’m just tested Reason 4.01 Demo here;

Hmm, do you mean for example the wave-type selector in Osc? I think that they cannot be controlled by MIDI-CC signal.
Therefore don’t appear.

This means simply these MIDI-CC numbers don’t be used in Thor.
MIDI-Control Device can transmit the MIDI-CC signals from 0 to 127, but synthesizers are not assigning all the CC numbers to their parameters.

Well, I’m not very good at Reason, so please correct if I’m wrong.

Hey satobox. Thanks for replying.

I actuall spent a few painstaking days writing my own EMU X-board 49 codec and map files (since Reason doesn’t supply any for this particular controller), and part of that was identifying each Midi CC parameter in Thor. In Thor’s case, each parameter that can be controlled has a very specific name value that must be referenced by a knob, button, fader, etc. from your controller.

In this case, yes I am referring to the wav-type selector, which for some oscillator types there is only “Osc x Param B”, while others also have a Param C (strangely there is no Param A…).

The reason I mentioned the exteraneous Midi-CC values that are showing up in the Midi-CC Device is that I suspect they may be showing up in that list because they are supposed to be additional maps to controls I know are there - not certain, but I do know that at least some very specific attributes that are available in Thor are not showing up in the list.

Thank you again for your reply. Please let me know if there is anything else I can provide or obtain to help understand the issue.



Sorry, I still can’t understand “Osc x Param B” or something as you said. (maybe they are written only in the EMU’s map file? :huh: )

But, I think that the list of Renoise’s MIDI-Control Device is right because it’s exactly the same with Thor’s MIDI CC Chart.
This is the MIDI Implementation Charts which I got from Propellerhead’s site.

I think you can not override the CC mappings that are sent via ReWire MIDI to Reason. If someone knows how, let us know please.

So the CC mappings you see in Renoises MIDIControlDevice are the standard/fixed implementation charts only. If you want to use your own overridden settings, you have to connect your MIDI controller to Reason and not to Renoise via MIDIControlDevice. This also means you also have to record the automation in Reason then, can not use the via a MIDIControlDevice.

But again: Probably some other Reason users could help us out there. I might have missed something. Nevertheless there seems to be nothing that we do wrong. Other ReWire master seem to behave exactly like Renoise here.

Thank you both very much - let me see if I can justify myself.

Overall what I am seeing is that it appears some Thor controls (possibly other Reason instruments) are either not listed in the midi controller chart or are incorrect - the actual controls may have changed over time.

One way I can show you is if you have Reason.

First open Renoise 2.1 B4 (so it is the master), then open up the midi controller chart and finally Reason.

Next, add Thor in Reason.

One of the first Thor controller values listed in the chart is for “Osc 1 + 2 Level”. In Thor, right-click on the “1 + 2” fader level for the osciallator mixer control that sits between Filter 1 and Filter 2. Select “Edit Remote Override Mapping”. The heading for this item will be displayed at the top, and it should say “Item: Thor - Osc 1 And 2 Level”.

Now switch to Renoise. Add a ReWire-In Device, then go to Instrument settings and and select the midi device “ReWire: Reason - Thor 1”. Now add the Midi-Controller Device. For the first CC drop down, in the list you will see “Osc 1 And 2 Level”. If you select it and adjust the slider, you should see this control affect the expected item in Reason.

Now go back to Thor, and for the first Oscillator choose the “FM Pair Osc”. Right click in the box that starts at “1” for the Carrier waveform and select “Edit Remote Override Mapping”. Here you see this item is called “Item: Thor 1 - Osc 1 Param B”. The Mod waveform is called “Item: Thor 1 - Osc 1 Param C”. However, you wil also notice these values to show in the midi controller document.

The only reason I bring the keyboard into the equation, is that it allowed me to prove to myself that these are valid contollable items in Thor that can be mapped to - I have done it and it works.

The other thing I want to point out, is that the item name specified must be exact - while the midi controller document says the oscillator level 1 and 2 value is “Osc 1 + 2 Level”, if you try to call it by that name it won’t work - you can see this one is correct in Renoise.

If you guys have signed up as devs on Reason site, I wonder if they have information about this or you can ask them about it - not sure. Is it poss possible for someone else to confirm this information as well?

I love the way both Renoise and Reason allow me to write music, each for their different bits of awesomeness. I am incredibly excited that Renoise is adding ReWire, and I would love for these things to work as well as possible - half my time creating the right sounds, the rest actually writing the tune.

If need be, I will determine what every valid controller value is for every instrument and object in Reason and send it your way.

Does this all make sense? Please let me know if you need any more details or information, and again, thank you very much!

Thats what I meant above. The “Remote Override Mapping” setting will not apply to ReWired MIDI, but only to MIDI from control surfaces. Thats a limitation or bug or missing feature in Reason…

So, if you want to fully customize the mappings, you have to connect your MIDI device directly to Reason and do the automation there.

Ahhh, now I understand what you mean!!
But taktik is right, Reason seems to ignore the ReWired-midi port in the override mapping panel (although Renoise send CC signal correctly).

Indeed, it is convenient if it can.
You should ask Propellerheads devs for it, really. :)

I think I see now what you mean about the override settings now as well.

What I want to point out is that the codex/mapping system that is used for the control surfaces isn’t based on the override functionality. When the remote override is used, the controller is locked on that specific instrument. That is not true when you map the controller.

I was using the remote override purely as a demonstration of at least one case in which a non-documented instrument control is actually available and usable.

I don’t want to confuse the issue with some of my methodologies here, but I feel confident there are instument controls that Renoise can use as long as you know about them - I had to poke around myself to find them, but they are highly desireable to me.

I also don’t believe Propellerhead intended these controls to be hidden or not used. I think they just need to update their documentation. It may be that if you have signed up to be a dev on the Propellorhead site that this information is available - most people wouldn’t need to write their own map file.

I don’t want to beat a dead horse or be a pain, I just really want this available in the 2.1 official release, and I think it is possible other Reason instruments or effects could be missing things other people will want as well.

I don’t know the best way to solve this, not having access to Renoise code, but I do understand it isn’t realistically feasible to provide a way for users to customize external DAW instrument parameters through Renoise, and it may also be dangerous to subscribe to undocumented features.

If anyone else can provide some insight here, it would be greatly appreciated, especially if you have access to Propellerhead dev resources.

Thank you very much for your quick responses and for listening.

Hmm, I’m not a developer, so I shouldn’t say about this anymore.

But hey, I’ve found the workaround, though it’s a bit complicated.
If you have installed MIDI yoke, you can automate the “Param B,C” from Renoise because MIDI yoke port are recognized by Reason’s override mapping panel.
For example,

  • Select a MIDI yoke port at MIDI propertties in Instrument Settings
  • Set MIDI-Control Device and link to MIDI yoke port
  • For example, select CC value to “0” in the MIDI-Control Device
  • Then override Thor’s param by selecting CC-00 or auto MIDI learning.

Not smart, but work. :rolleyes:

IMO, we already have standerd control method for Reason (and it’s confotable) and also there is workaround, it’s enough effort for another DAW.

I understand your frustration, but all Renoise does is showing what Reason gives us. Renoise simply behaves as any other ReWire master here. Its up to Reason to change or implement this correctly.
I’ve seen several other threads about this problem with other hosts on the net, and the solution was always that you have to do your automation & customizations in Reason then. Aka, directly connect your MIDI controller to reason.

Probably someone else here with more experiences with Reason could help us out. Maybe theres a not that obvious workaround (beside what Sato already pointed out) for this issue that I am not aware of?

Thank you both again, I appreciate the feedback.

Yeah, I guess I will stick with using the midi keyboard in Reason for now and the computer keyboard for Renoise.

Maybe I am dreaming too much, but …how amazing would it be to make an arpeggiated sequence of completely unique dynamic sounds using combinations of simple math algorithms on the DSP track controls against Thor…the right delay kicking up contrasting grains of noise inside the rhythmic cloud…the freqency and resonance following their own patterns within each element… a more diverse, spectacular and contrived arpeggio is difficult for me to imagine…

All things in time.