Music theory question

General Discussion
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I did never learn proper music theory, but that’s probably why i make weird music. I have been tracking for more than 20 years to and fro, so i have of course learned something on the way, but i can’t even properly read sheets of notes.

People make music in the jungle too, you definately don’t have to know music theory to make music, but it can help you make what you want to make instead of fumbling in the dark to find the rare gems deep in the jungle of rythm, chords and melodies. I like fumbling in the dark though, that’s a bit what makes it exciting and challenging for myself. If i knew all the time exactly what to do, then i would probably get bored with it very soon.

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I did never learn proper music theory, but that’s probably why i make weird music. I have been tracking for more than 20 years to and fro, so i have of course learned something on the way, but i can’t even properly read sheets of notes.

People make music in the jungle too, you definately don’t have to know music theory to make music, but it can help you make what you want to make instead of fumbling in the dark to find the rare gems deep in the jungle of rythm, chords and melodies. I like fumbling in the dark though, that’s a bit what makes it exciting and challenging for myself. If i knew all the time exactly what to do, then i would probably get bored with it very soon.

Yeah I can’t really make what I want to make, I just start with some samples and some improvisation and see what comes out at the end of the tunnel. It’s frustrating sometimes but mostly I’m having fun because it’s relatively easy to come up with highly original music.

On the other hand, becoming a serious musician shouldn’t really be about “having fun”, it should be about producing a product that sells and that’s popular, sad but true.

I wish I could remain an underground producer but I guess I’ll have to learn to let go a bit and learn new things.

I like your song btw, reminds me of Aphex Twin’s music.

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Music theory is not so bad as long as you have a chart in front of you while doing electronic / computer music.

You dont have to have it memorized but I think its good to know what key your bass drum sample fits with and work in a key which compliments the bass drum. But breaking away from the ‘rules’ of the scale your working in can sound cool and bring in an evil or mysterious feeling. Even music theory in the sense of how you have your LFOs set up, are they strictly in time and on beat or do they drift and go out of time while still sounding cool…that kind of stuff.

Also knowing what scales have each certain feeling. Radian was explaining phrygian dominant to me while back. That is a cool scale. Its always going to sound quite metal, quite evil but mysterious.

The pentatonic scales always sound quite ‘zen’, like a japanese garden or a ‘spirit forest’ or something.

Game music designers must rely on that kind of knowledge of the ‘feelings’ of scales when they get their brief. How do you write a piece for ‘kirby in dreamland’ vs ‘resident evil’?..there is pressure and they will be expected to write quickly too. So not much time for really feeling out a song by trial and error or writing by ear.

Also, if an electronic musician can play the keyboard live and knows all the fingerings for scales and chords, they can write a piece of music 20 times faster than someone who only step sequences.

I’d say music theory is important in the sense that it will save a lot of time in writing apiece start to finish.

One thing I really would like to know more about is song structure.

How to make an arrangement that builds properly, drops properly, has breakdowns in the right places, scratching in the right place, vocal samples at the right time. How should the drum sound grow and become more and more layered and powerful. Where to keep it simple, where to include big harmonies. Thinking about how people would move to it.

1 Like
64

One thing I really would like to know more about is song structure.

How to make an arrangement that builds properly, drops properly, has breakdowns in the right places, scratching in the right place, vocal samples at the right time. How should the drum sound grow and become more and more layered and powerful. Where to keep it simple, where to include big harmonies. Thinking about how people would move to it.

Aren’t there any books on the subject?

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Yeah, you are probably right. I should look into it and find some books on song structure.

Renoise is cool in that way. You could find a book on country music song structure and come out with some crazy electronic music thats nothing like country.

I want to learn a physical instrument properly too, so theory will be necessary. I feel like the songs which have physical instruments in them in addition to synths almost always sound better, even if its only samples of physical instruments like drums. For the songs that are 100% synthesizer, I like some of them but I feel they can be quite lifeless no matter how much attention to detail has been put into automation and ‘humanization’ or whatever ( although adding a bit of swing can get rid of some of the boring lifeless machine problem ).

Breakbeats cut up into individual hits and layered with drum machine, sounds way better than drum machine alone.

Sustained guitar tones layered up with synthesizer tones sounds way better than synths alone…

Tines work well with synth together. There is much to think about, but I think knowing some music theory can speed up the songwriting process.

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Excerpts from Quincy Jones interview at Vulture.com

http://www.vulture.com/2018/02/quincy-jones-in-conversation.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Slonimsky

"…few years back there was a quote you supposedly gave — I couldn’t find the source of it, so maybe it’s apocryphal — where you dismissed rap as being a bunch of four-bar loops. Is that an opinion you stand by?

That’s true about rap, that it’s the same phrase over and over and over again. The ear has to have the melody groomed for it; you have to keep the ear candy going because the mind turns off when the music doesn’t change. Music is strange that way. You’ve got to keep the ear busy.

Is there an example from the work you did, maybe with Michael, which illustrates what you’re talking about?

Yeah, the best example of me trying to feed the musical principles of the past — I’m talking about bebop — is “Baby Be Mine.” [Hums the song’s melody.] That’s Coltrane done in a pop song. Getting the young kids to hear bebop is what I’m talking about. Jazz is at the top of the hierarchy of music because the musicians learned everything they could about music. Every time I used to see Coltrane he’d have Nicolas Slonimsky’s book.

Yeah, he was famously obsessed with the Thesaurus of Scales and Melodic Patterns. That’s the one you’re talking about, right?

That’s right. You’re bringing up all the good subjects now! Everything that Coltrane ever played was in that thesaurus. In fact, right near the front of that book, there’s a 12-tone example — it’s “Giant Steps.” Everyone thinks Coltrane wrote that, he didn’t. It’s Slonimsky. That book started all the jazz guys improvising in 12-tone. Coltrane carried that book around till the pages fell off.

When Coltrane started to go far out with the music —
“Giant Steps.”

Even further out, though, like on Ascension —
You can’t get further out than 12-tone, and “Giant Steps” is 12-tone.

But when he was playing atonally —
No, no, no. Even that was heavily influenced by Alban Berg — that’s as far out as you can get.

Do you hear the spirit of jazz in pop today?

No. People gave it up to chase money. When you go after Cîroc vodka and Phat FarmCîroc is the alcohol brand owned by Diddy. Phat Farm was the fashion label founded by hip-hop impresario Russell Simmons in 1992. Simmons sold the company in 2004. and all that shit, God walks out of the room. I have never in my life made music for money or fame. Not even ThrillerJones may not have worked on Thriller for money, but co-producing the album (with Jackson) presumably made him a ton of it: The 1982 album is widely reported to be the biggest-selling LP of all time, having sold somewhere north of 66 million copies. . No way. God walks out of the room when you’re thinking about money. You could spend a million dollars on a piano part and it won’t make you a million dollars back. That’s just not how it works.

Is there innovation happening in modern pop music?

Hell no. It’s just loops, beats, rhymes and hooks. What is there for me to learn from that? There ain’t no fucking songs. The song is the power; the singer is the messenger. The greatest singer in the world cannot save a bad song. I learned that 50 years ago, and it’s the single greatest lesson I ever learned as a producer. If you don’t have a great song, it doesn’t matter what else you put around it.

What was your greatest musical innovation?
Everything I’ve done.

Everything you’ve done was innovative?

Everything was something to be proud of — absolutely. It’s been an amazing contrast of genres. Since I was very young, I’ve played all kinds of music: bar mitzvah music, Sousa marches, strip-club music, jazz, pop. Everything. I didn’t have to learn a thing to do Michael Jackson.

What would account for the songs being less good than they used to be?
The mentality of the people making the music. Producers now are ignoring all the musical principles of the previous generations. It’s a joke. That’s not the way it works: You’re supposed to use everything from the past. If you know where you come from, it’s easier to get where you’re going. You need to understand music to touch people and become the soundtrack to their lives. Can I tell you one of the greatest moments in my life?

Of course.
It was the first time they celebrated Dr. King’s birthday in Washington, D.C., and Stevie Wonder was in charge and asked me to be musical director. After the performance, we went to a reception, and three ladies came over: The older lady had Sinatra at the Sands, I arranged that; her daughter had my album The Dude; and then that lady’s daughter had Thriller. Three generations of women said those were their favorite records. That touched me so much.

I’m trying to isolate what you specifically believe the problem with modern pop is. It’s the lack of formal musical knowledge on the part of the musicians?

Yes! And they don’t even care they don’t have it.

Well, who’s doing good work?

Bruno Mars. Chance the Rapper. Kendrick Lamar. I like where Kendrick’s mind is. He’s grounded. Chance, too. And the Ed Sheeran record is great. Sam Smith — he’s so open about being gay. I love it. Mark Ronson is someone who knows how to produce.

Putting aside the quality of contemporary songs, are there any technical or sonic production techniques that feel fresh?

No. There ain’t nothing new. The producers are lazy and greedy.

How does that laziness manifest itself?
Listen to the music — these guys don’t know what they’re doing. You’ve got to respect the gift God gave you by learning your craft.

Are you as down on the state of film scoring as you are on pop?

It’s not good. Everybody’s lazy. Alexandre DesplatThe French film composer won an Oscar for his score for 2015’s The Grand Budapest Hotel and his been nominated an additional eight times. — he’s good. He’s my brother. He was influenced by my scores.

Again, when you say film composers are lazy, what does that mean, exactly, in this context?
It means they’re not going back and listening to what Bernard Herrmann did.

Do you see a future for the music business?

There isn’t a music business anymore! If these people had paid attention to Shawn Fanning 20 years ago, we wouldn’t be in this mess. But the music business is still too full of these old-school bean counters. You can’t be like that. You can’t be one of these back-in-my-day people.

You’re talking about business not music, but, and I mean this respectfully, don’t some of your thoughts about music fall under the category of “back in my day”?

Musical principles exist, man. Musicians today can’t go all the way with the music because they haven’t done their homework with the left brain. Music is emotion and science. You don’t have to practice emotion because that comes naturally. Technique is different. If you can’t get your finger between three and four and seven and eight on a piano, you can’t play. You can only get so far without technique. People limit themselves musically, man. Do these musicians know tango? Macumba? Yoruba music? Samba? Bossa nova? Salsa? Cha-cha?

Maybe not the cha-cha.
[Marlon] BrandoThe actor and Jones were longtime friends. During a down period in Jones’s life, he spent time on the island in Tahiti which Brando owned. The two called each other Leroy, owing to a story recounted extremely well (one among many) in this recent GQ profile. used to go cha-cha dancing with us. He could dance his ass off. He was the most charming motherfucker you ever met. He’d fuck anything. Anything! He’d fuck a mailbox. James Baldwin. Richard Pryor. Marvin Gaye.

What’s something positive you’ve been feeling about music lately?

Understanding where it comes from. It’s fascinating. I was on a trip with Paul Allen a few years ago, and I went to the bathroom and there were maps on the wall of how the Earth looked a million-and-a-half years ago. Off the coast of South Africa, where Durban is, was the coast of China. The people had to be mixing, and you hear it in the music — in the drums from both places. There are African qualities to Chinese music, Japanese music, too, with the Kodo drumming. It all comes from Africa. It’s a heavy thing to think about."

Aren’t there any books on the subject?

‘Melody in Songwriting’ and ‘Dance Music Manual’. Easier books for starters or deeper overview without going all mental into maths and all that…
https://www.amazon.com/Melody-Songwriting-Techniques-Writing-Berklee/dp/063400638X

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0415825644/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1519037113&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=dance+music+manual

67

Interesting.

I’m not a hater of hip hop, nor am I loving wanky jazz solos that are all over the place.

Same goes for breakcore a lot of the time. Being overly complicated doesnt necesasarily make it good.

Thats just my opinion.

I understand where those guys in the interview are coming from though.

But simplicity is not always a bad thing and complexity for the sake of it is not always good either.

The focus of hip hop is the message and the lyricism, so the music itself must be relatively simple.

Hip hop has been dying and filtered down into simplistic, materialistic thugged out shit.

I suppose it shows that some big record executives can find some advantage in spreading a message that makes people simple, materialistic and violent. Thats not all hip-hop, but eventually it became like 99% of it. The message has become “I’m in the club, wearing expensive products and drinking expensive drinks” rather than “the goverment is fucking us over and trying to take away our rational thought process and brainwash us so that they can cheat us out of our lifetimes”…

Same with electronic music and all types of music, including jazz and classical.

The original, interesting, thoughtful tunes need some serious searching to find.

Before you can find them you will have to listen through endless hours of total bullshit wackness.

Like how many shitty, annoying pompous classical tunes do you have to hear before you find something great?

How many hours of grating, all over the place ‘look at me I’m so jazzy’ bullshit solos do you have to get through before you find a good jazz tune?

Thats part of the art of sampling in hip hop, listening through all that crap.

Thats a nice book recommandation inside that interview.

Its here for free : http://www.lapetitedistribution.org/archive/Nicolas_Slonimsky.pdf

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If ‘pain’ and ‘knowledge’ made a painting, ‘pain’ would have painted art, while ‘knowledge’ would have painted a picture.

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No limit may be set to art, neither is there any craftsman that is fully master of his craft…

A tray full of silver is not worth a mind full of knowledge…

Towering buildings are built from the ground up…

There is no road to heaven and no door into the earth…

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Hip hop is the only electronic music genre where equipment mastery is almost a side effect of the culture and not the primary motive. Here,the ear is the primary focal point rather than fingers(instrument performance) or eyes(sight reading, mathematical precision in sound engineering). The strong deference to music published in the past, on analogue formats after the discovery or innovation of Marley Marl who sampled a funk break to make a song out of it, made a collage of skills possible, but listening to music criically even while producing or composing it makes it a unique artform. The MPCs never had extensive eye candy or synth like modular racks and turntables were just vinyl players but were tuned to the ears of the samplists and beatmakers.

When Pete Rock took over as DJ in a local radio station and started making mixtapes the process illuminated others as well that sounds from any pool of records ideally different ones and no Various Compilations types (cos they were too easy) made sound collage compositions a more challenging and adventurous activity. Disparate sounds put together in a seamless fashion. Not to mention the technological limitations that added to the mix. You had to be creative with your music and creative with your tech, creative in selection of samples and creative with the final song building arrangments. The juxtaposition of Hip Hop culture along with graffiti and dance as well seals Hip Hop as an all rounder artform that rose from the ashes of NYC ghettos as a Phoenix. No other genre has this kind of human condition roots (excluding Jazz, blues…) and in electronic music the other genres are mostly the love children of tinkering studio handlers, thereby having a calculated demeanor but lacking in human swing and feel. Waveform generators in lieu of raw cut samples.

Quincy Jones is wrong to say this about hip hop, he would complain that his heart beats the same BPM and rhythmic pattern all the time. Bugger, that is what is life all about. Consistency and variety in good doses.

Jazz is the precursor to Hip Hop and hence has a stance of respect and tradition but Hip Hop music stands head and shoulders as an art form without a doubt, without Hip Hop we would never have the 40 other genres of Black inspired music in modern discography.

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Good hip hop is great but there is so much shit hip hop, but some of it is so wack its great just for its level of wackness standing out

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Good hip hop is great but there is so much shit hip hop, but some of it is so wack its great just for its level of wackness standing out

A large part of the wackiness of easily visible or rather marketed brand of hip hop is because of record labels that formed in that period when NWA came out with a rebellious tone and those labels were Jewish owned. Def Jam one of the largest is owned by a Cohen. Those white guys who saw business opportunity out of a ghetto sound wanted to open shop and they saw drugs and apathy and violence as a way to trigger the raw youth and their dissatisfactions in that society. Jewish people don’t make hip hop or rap, not part of their culture in terms of origin, but they made it intertwined and they built the distribution system by pooling their own money and controlling all of it. They posted themselves as decision makers and started exploiting Black talent and sucking their money off of them using legal loopholes and well designed contracts. The best lawyers and law firms are Jewish for a reason. Guys like Shugg Knight made money rolling and back stabbing and coercion his work ethic and no doubt he got busted for it eventually. But the repurcusssions of people like these meant that everyone involved started to watch their backs eventually and trust dissolved into a peace treaty of legalities just like drug dealers who watch their own turf.

The major issue with the music industry is that the industry is not made, maintained and run by musicians. Rather it is run by money spinners and art mafias who are basically looking to make a major revenue shave off their ‘talent pool’ of artists. If a Black record label was run by a music producer himself it would be anti establishment to go against his brothers and short sell them of cheat them right and left. It will be an industry taboo. Rather such labels would foster healthy ‘artistic’ competition and in turn build culture while pitting sales as a motivator too. Can white business men make rap music? HELL NO.

Once the talent part is removed, what remains is control. The business men who run this industry and distribution platforms very well known that if the industry was full of artistic gems made day in day out and a superlative culture was being built side by side in parallel then eventually musicians will take over becos of the pride and accomplishments of free artistic reign. Business men will be mostly a sideshow, the errand boys for the real item and product creators, the ones ones without whom their leverage would not even exist. An artist can still sell his own music while making it too. A business man won’t be selling shit if his artist control breaks loose. So in order to leverage creative control and prevent culture from being too progressively expansive and ambrosiac, they made it stifle and ridicule itself to the point of making it look asinine. It’s a mockery of talent, like saying ’ we own you fellas, we can make you look like shit and still make you sell! We doing the talking now, not your talent and music, without us selling your stuff no one will get it and buy it…we tell you to become a monkey on a music video, you do it, we tell you to strip butt naked you do it, we tell you to curse your own mother, you do it…we own you fellas, we do…".

This kind of cultural control also helps other business models thrive. When rap music was about having hope in life and appreciating the beauty of what one had and was all positive, business men had no chance to thrive on drugs and violence and sex. In those decades, drug imports started becoming a booming trade, entertainment industry was becoming more technologically available with TVs selling everywhere and prostitution at an all time high. The gun business was another outlet for revenues. But the real business was the prison business. Some insiders now reflect on their time doing such contracts with some shady people (no doubt mafia) who decided to sponsor the record labels to bring in more inmates for their private prisons. The more inmates they have the more money they make and also translates to money for their stakeholders. They mutually agreed to help fill such corporate hostels and money making entities by fuelling the still vulnerable and impressionable youth with images of sex and violence. They did their execution with a high degree of professionalism (organised crime as usual, always with a suit) and the result is a cabal of White and Jewish businessmen and mfaia sponsors who are running the media outlets, money collection spots and the distribution system. No wonder they feel it’s their duty to make money off every single thing that goes through them. Artists who are on such labels are chosen for their level of charisma or influence on the mass audience or rather their target audience. The businessmen label owners also understand that they can sell to preteens, teens, adolescents, young adults and beyond and it’s best to stratify the music catalogue so they everyone comes shopping to them. Artists are just ice cream flavours in their ice cream shop and they want you to come to their shop only. The result is that it becomes a competition of business by selling what a businessman thinks versus a competitive existence of culture and a healthy symbiosis of merit money with a cultural trophy as a musician thinks. Now multiply this issue with every other businessman motherfucker who enters this line of investment portfolios and each one of them thinking how to maximise their profits outlets without giving two hoots to cultural development, cos obviously they don’t even play an instrument… now we have a major problem of what we call a commercial music industry, an industry designed and engineered to make money as its first priority, with the most cannibalizing dog running the show end of the day. It’s like trying to play piano in a mafia joint, each one will about shout what to play and if you don’t you just might be shot by anyone of them, they all want their piece of the pie, that is all, as long as you survive your stay in that joint, after you roll off to the side, they bring in the next one to man handle…

Hip hop music has lots of subgenres from instrumental beats which explore the composers skill and imagination, to rap lyrics backing music which have a steady beat to let the rapper shine to electronic downtempo stuff that makes songwriting a priority, to Neo Soul style beats and songs where heavy Jazz and Blues and Gospel influence enables creative freedom for its producers, and every other derivative genre that capitalises on a core rhythmic standard taking cues form the last 100 years of music and music technology and Hip Hop culture.

The wackness comes from the middlemen elements not the musicians. The musicians are the innovators and cultural progenitors at the very least folks who can do art. Never let a business man tell you what to play, ever. Unless you feel it’s good to give him an ego massage and he feels pampered enough to believe that he can control your outputs and he magically hands out a recording contract (ohhh boy oh boy)…no wonder they call it selling your soul to the devil.

I like Quincy Jones’s statement because on deeper analysis it seems he is making a positive statement on the exploitative nature of the music industry and the kind of output that is clearly discernable and what he is calling as shit. In that sense he means to urge musicians to learn their craft in a more deeper way and not get mentally stifled and swayed to more pedestrian standards or sellable standards and forego musical education in the process. Obviously it takes way more intellectual investment to do a degree in Jazz or classical than to make minimal techno mixtape, but art if done with sincerity transcends even this sort of intellectual benefit. More study obviously will help the musician without a doubt. That is what he was saying.

The other thing I like about Quincy is that he says very outspokenly about what he prefers end of the day. ’ The worst that can happen is that they(meaning the decision makers or the audience) don’t like what I made and even I don’t like what I made (referring to folks or the labels telling him what to make it sound like)…so I make music that I Love (meaning that the end result of both parties likeing it is a win win situation and that is a bold chance he will always take no matter what, short selling or stunting your goals to please someone never pans out in the end. You cannot make everyone happy, so most definitely make yourself happy FIRST without a sliver of doubt)'.

If that is the message from the man himself, I think it’s an excellent lesson on how to make your cake and eat it too. Learn for the masters as they say. Personally even if I do business every day my existence and experience as an artist takes first priority every single living minute I have. Self perfection and continuous improvement of inner skills and the use of one’s talent is what drives me, not the money (I already got enough…). But the society is heavily manipulated so it’s not too pleasing to realize that. Shit sells becos people buy it, and that is the unavoidable truth all of us have to deal with. To me, control or the drive behind it is the root of all social evils, not money, money is just an emblem of asset transmission, it ain’t got no brain of its own, unless we give it. Control however is a very ancient form of growth inhibiting force masquerading as progress and commercial competition (versus artistic competition). I would prefer to thrive and live in a world where artists rule the planet and businessmen clean the sewers.

Edit: On the cultural growth point, the businessmen who have no artistic say in how culture pans our in time nonetheless have made it a historical ‘work it in the books’ agenda as well by making culture coerce in a direction they collectively prefer just cos they can influence it via commerce. After some time has passed even the business men can say ‘look this is how we are the arbiters of social change and cultural development’. But in reality they are no the inventors or magazines or creators of art but the apt definition of a businessman is ‘manipulators of commerce’. Historically thougj when times well less contrived and more ezpansive, the Silk Road and the seas were trading routes. In that sense trade and commerce is as old as prostitution itself (the first blowjob over coins is a valid transaction). The influence of trade and commerce has no doubt been a force on social developments and has a huge stake in world history and cultural exchange too, but that was all in the past. Now when the stakes are far less in terms of loss of time, assets or life by long expeditions, the business folks have forgotten their ancestral legacy and when the band of robbers and bankers and petty thieves and plain and simple mafias and crime collectives approached them for a symbiotic relationship, they fell flat and went full frontal with their new established goals insulting even thier forefathers in the process. It’s a pity how the bad elements get the best of us so easily with disastrous consequences. The only thing the ones among us who realise all this is to fight with a dedicated drive and fight to kill and not fight to win. The other party ain’t fighting with honor, just so that you know. They think idealism is a weakness…good for them, they gonna get stymied with the right people. They don’t stand a chance.

The other irony is that the criminal s practice ‘united we stand divided we fall’ but they themselves are selling the idea of jealousy or material possessions and stupid and petty competition and violence and adultery on TV so that the masses remain disjunct and unity never happens. Without unity the masses don’t stand a chance. Its the secret reason why the baddest of their clan go to the gym and drink milk while the masses are sold Coke and sugary doughnuts. These guys are smart too and they have been arbiters of their game for a long time too. Their artistic skills are non existent but they understand people and they are risk takers too, and possibly that is the dystopia we have to fight against. A world run by businessmen and mafias.