With all the latest discussions about a beatslicer and all I would just like to drop the comment that for me personally a working plugin-delay-compensation solution is far more important, in fact it’s the thing that I personally hope/wish/want taktik to work on above all … Anybody with me ?
Use two sendtracks, one sendtrack for the non-delayed tracks and one sendtrack for your delayed plugins
Well then put a delay device on the sendtrack for the non-delayed tracks, set the feedback to 0, mute the source and set the delay to the amount of delay the plugs have and there you have your PDC solution 
this doesnt solve the problem of improperly rendered loops 
(because of the gap at the beginning and the missing samples at the end).
and thats just one example.
In the end, it’s all proper Renoise-style, it’s a problem but there are workarounds and solutions to that, but still … I would just love if it worked.
on a sidenote to that, does anyone know of a solution to measure the delay that is introduced by a fx-chain btw ?
looza, i am absolutely with you on the PDC concern.
it is frustrating to not be able to use an always growing amount of plugins due to that.
@vV, and now let us know a workaround (how much i love’em) for using various delay-causing plugins at the same time, allright? 
ah keith, I knew I could count on you. 
“Simple” (assuming the plugins are all on seperate tracks… cause this workaround falls apart otherwise)
Imagine you have:
- Plugin A which introduces 1000 samples of delay.
- Plugin B which introduces 500 samples of delay.
- Plugin C which introduces 0 samples of delay.
You should:
- Delay the output of Plugin A by 0 samples.
- Delay the output of Plugin B by 500 samples.
- Delay the output of Plugin C by 1000 samples.
Now they should all be triggering at the same time. 
But yes, this is quite a pain in the ass of a workaround.
For what it’s worth, Voxengo Sample Delay is quite perfect for the task.
.
iirc vst-scanner can do that. but no chains…
however many plugs dont send latency infos.
so its up to the host/user to get this info.
http://www.musicdsp.org/files/pdc.pdf
page 2 for more infos about pdc in general and page 9 for an ‘ideal solution’.
Here is my slightly lofi solution…
Track 1 contains no effects. Pan this track to hard left.
Track 2 contains the fx chain you wish to test. Pan this track to hard right.
Create/find a sound sample which has an instant attack, going from total silence to full volume in the space of 1 sample (essentially an “impulse”). Very easy to create one in the Renoise sample editor.
Input a note to trigger the sound on both tracks, on the first row of the pattern.
Now render the pattern/selection to a new sample. If there was any latency in the fx chain on Track 2, it will be immediately obvious in the new sample. The difference between the left and right channels = the amount of latency.
.
I am doing something like this whenever I need to export my songs to wav (for remixing/coops etc), I just play a click on each channel first and cut the resulting gap at the beginning of each wav file.
and voxengo sample delay is nice (and for PDC usually works with multis of 512 btw), but since it’s such a pain to use I only use it for those really hefty cases when a plug introduces a really terrible delay.
Why do people throw down other ideas when pimping their own? That’s so annoying… your idea is no more important than the next person’s.
What are known plugins that mess up the mix when rendering do to excessive latency?
I’m using renoise for quite some time now, and can’t recall tears from noticeable out of sync mixes. I have encountered plugins that do not affect the audio-stream at all, and then I just neglect those and choose a different one in the genre.
Will pdc make already tight tracks even tighter?
@jonas
it’s not about the rendering procedure, it’s of course also well audible during playback.
the following plugins do require compensation for using them without getting well audible latencies.
i regard these VSTs to be unusable in renoise, except you’re running them on the master or are crazy enough to go for one of these “workarounds”, which will btw. also cripple the flexbility of working with sendchannels.
- Kjaerhus MPL-1
- Audiodamage Digitalis Discord
- Izotope Ozone 3 (namely: mastering reverb + loudness maximizer units)
- Izotope Spectron
- Linearphase Graphic EQ 2
- Nebula3 Reverb
- PSP MasterQ
- PSP VintageWarmer2
- Akai QuadComp
- Delaydots Spectrumworx
- Native Instruments Spektral Delay
- Acon DigitalMedia Studio Declipper
- Acon DigitalMedia Studio Declicker
- Acon DigitalMedia Studio Denoiser
- Acon DigitalMedia Studio Limiter
- Acon DigitalMedia Studio (anyotherplugof’em)
- Wave Arts Trackplug 5 (slight delay, but still noticable on drums)
- IK Multimedia T-Racks (the entire series)
- Sinus TripleComp
- Vocov Vocoder
- Native Instruments Vokator
- Waves L3 Multimaximizer
- Waves L3 Ultramximizer
- Waves Linear Phase EQ
- Waves Soundshifter
- Waves UltraPitch
- Waves X-Click
- Waves X-Crackle
- Waves X-Noise
- Waves Z-Noise
and these are only the plugins i know of…
This is not what I intended. With all the discussion going on about the things People would like to see in the next renoise-version I just wanted to throw my two cents in. Infact I would also like a beatslicer, but for me personally PDC is much more important. That’s it.
Well kinda. Just try around, make a track with some really snappy drums and a track with a really snappy bass, add voxengo sample delay (Voxengo Sound Delay - Precise Audio Delay Plugin VST, AU, AAX) to one track and start incrementing the delay in 512 steps (after turning it down to 0 first), after a while it gets pretty audible. And that can happen if you have a big fx-chain.
apart from that, the thing that is the biggest problem for me is the current inability to render proper loops. This happens even with the renoise-intern “render to selection”-command.
That’s a bit more work, you pick the plugin with the largest delay and you set the non-delay tracks to that one, the other plugins you add a sendtrack for each plugin that has a different delay, you add a delay on that sendtrack that extends up to the delay of the plugin that has the largest delay so all plugins will then have the same delay.
It’s very simple, you just have to do more.
Nopes it does not resolve this particular problem. Other than that you have to render far beyond point of ending to get the full end and cutting the silence at the beginning of the sample, my solution will not change anything about that part.
Looza: and I wasn’t directing my comment just at you… I’ve just had a general frustration towards people shooting down other people’s perfectly viable (read: they can be implemented) ideas on this board. This should be an open minded community, not a closed minded one 
it’s time for another vote I guess.
We do need to discuss the pros and cons of all ideas though. I think looza just pointed out some cons.
I agree with looza on the “render to sample issue” but a feature that would fix that would be this:
A button in the sampleeditor that removes the silence at the beginning at the sample.
On the picture is a render of a long beep that went through 2 effects which added their delay.
A button that just removed the plugindelay would not be perfect but a possible fixup. It would also
solve the problem of when you have a regular sample and just want to remove the silence at the start.
well, for a sound-sample this works, but a drumloop being rendered this way just wont work … if you just delete the silence at the beginning you will get an out-of-sync loop with a sloppy end. depending on how bad the plugin delay is, ofcourse. but you can just render 17 (33 or…) steps and cut the end yourself.
This is very easy to do manually. I don’t think a button for this would be justified.
Anyway there’s no elegant workarounds… we need PDC and that’s it. Automatic PDC, that is.
Yeah, I’ve read something about that. I don’t even know what’s the problem exactly… some VSTs not reporting the correct delay or it’s something else?
If the problem is with a few VSTs then I guess we can just avoid using them until they get fixed.
But anyway, I saw how automatic PDC works in Cubase and Reaper, for example, and it does work nicely. Never had a problem with any plugin I tried.
I mean eventually most hosts use that, so it has to be good enough.