PIANO ROLL integrated in Pattern Editor! A Advanced Pattern Editor

Mark2 · May 20, 2016, 4:30pm

Raul, there’s one thing that bothers me: How exactly does the user set the first shown key and the last shown key?

Is your suggestion that when there is

C#D#EF#G#A#B

4

< >

This “<” will decrease the first shown key by one?

I click “<” and it will become this?:

BC#D#EF#G#A#

4

< >

Thing is, your pictures have the view all start at a C, and that made me think there would be never a view starting at the B key, and the “<” would decrease the first shown octave by 12.

And “>” seems to increase the first shown key or octave, *but… where does the user add those additional octaves that are in your pictures?

fladd · May 20, 2016, 6:00pm

Imagine a standard DAW where you drag an audio clip to the timeline. You see the sample visualized as a waveform, easy-peasy.
Now, in Renoise, if the note was sustained (looped waveform, whatever), I would expect what you describe, but with a one-shot I wouldn’t.
Trouble is of course, we don’t have a distinction between “audio” and “midi” - but that’s exactly what I propose: a visual clue about what is actually going on.

Well, in case of a one shot, just make the box only for that row, but in a different colour, solved. If the user fails to set the sample as one-shot in the sample settings, but still uses it as one, then there is of course nothing you can do about it.

As for C-4 techno, are you trying to ignore how the software is being used?

No, I am just using it properly.

This translates to a closed mind.A real instrument does not play a note while repeatedly, twice, or three (at the same time).But at level of software, it does not have to be this limitation, much less in a tracker.Do not use if you prefer.Renoise can support aspects that are limited by the real instruments. Also!

Well, the whole reason piano rolls exist is that they model what people are most familiar with (hence it is a piano roll and not a didjeridoo note sheet). We already have something that does not follow these ‘limitations’: a tracker interface. But the whole point of implementing a piano roll in addition is arguably to provide a familiar alternative, isn’t it? If you make the Renoise piano roll implementation too exotic again, then you didn’t provide an alternative at all. That is why I would just implement (if at all) a pretty standard piano roll. No bells and whistles. Plain piano roll everyone is familiar with.

Marking only the notes that are OFF, it helps to order, and also to locate the notes that have no OFF, regardless of whether they are open or silenced alone, because the sample length is short.

A simple example: a bass drum the sound of the sample occupies 5 rows.No need to add a value OFF.Is it necessary that the rectangle occupies the 5 rows? For that, Renoise has to analyze the point where the sample ends to colorize the rectangle, before playing it.Really the user does not need to cut this note. Therefore, you do not need a visual aid.You will find every the notes without OFF at a glance.

What happens between patterns?The simplest graphic form, is that when there is an OFF value, it generates a background rectangle with the note immediately above, although it is above 3 Patterns.Currently it does not work so, if there is an OFF two patterns above, it is ignored.

Moreover, if there is a long effect, a delay, echo…, the sound of the sample still ringing several rows more, after the value OFF.There will also be to use the hearing to understand what happens.

All this would be analyzed to find the best solution involving few CPU resources.

Sure, but this also a piano roll doesn’t “solve”. If I use a piano roll to sequence drum samples for an instrument that ignores note-off messages anyway, the length of the note in the piano roll is not very informative. That is why some piano rolls allow for these notes to be shown as triangles or diamonds (i.e. as events, rather than epochs). I suggested a similar visual representation for these cases above in my reply to danoise.

Raul · May 20, 2016, 6:03pm

Hi Mark2

Screenshots show a solution that does not exist.To make this possible, Renoise need to support 120 notes (10 octaves) inside the track.You can use a base note to move between octaves. The reference is the “C-” = Do. But,
also you can scroll horizontally all the columns, to the right or left.It’s a quick way to represent something big in a small space.At the end of the runway there may be a “base note”:

Base notes: C-0, C-1,C-2,C-3,C-4,C-5,C-6,C-7,C-8,C-9. It would be a method to move fast, especially in Mode 2. Per example:

if you use the note base C-4 in Mode 1, the Pattern Editor show 3 octaves, 4, 5 and 6.
if you use the note base C-2 in Mode 1, the Pattern Editor show 3 octaves, 2, 3 and 4.

Everything depends on the chosen to represent graphic design.

Many instruments use one or two octaves as much. A complex topic piano could use 3, 4, or 5 octaves.
In fact, the workspace in most cases is smaller than those 120 notes because the instruments are not able to reproduce many octaves. This goes in favor for the whole topic.

In the screenshots is referenced octaves precisely. Most instruments are limited in few octaves, 1 or 2. The other day I composed a piano theme. I used only 3 octaves. I did not need more. In the end everything is simpler. What happens to the program, you need to think big, to avoid the limitations. Precisely why there are so many discussions on a piano roll.Everything seems bigger than it really is.

Raul · May 20, 2016, 6:24pm

Well, the whole reason piano rolls exist is that they model what people are most familiar with (hence it is a piano roll and not a didjeridoo note sheet). We already have something that does not follow these ‘limitations’: a tracker interface. But the whole point of implementing a piano roll in addition is arguably to provide a familiar alternative, isn’t it? If you make the Renoise piano roll implementation too exotic again, then you didn’t provide an alternative at all. That is why I would just implement (if at all) a pretty standard piano roll. No bells and whistles. Plain piano roll everyone is familiar with.

Renoise can be as complex as desired, provided it retains the simplicity of the basic functions.If so, the novice user will not have problems understanding at all. Include a piano roll could be useful. It turns out that his inclusion simplifies understanding of what happens in the pattern.But we must not forget that Renoise is a tracker.The piano roll must conform to Renoise, not vice versa. The pianoroll for Renoise need not be a standard pianoroll…

Sure, but this also a piano roll doesn’t “solve”. If I use a piano roll to sequence drum samples for an instrument that ignores note-off messages anyway, the length of the note in the piano roll is not very informative. That is why some piano rolls allow for these notes to be shown as triangles or diamonds (i.e. as events, rather than epochs). I suggested a similar visual representation for these cases above in my reply to danoise.

That is already a graphic resource. It would suffice to underline the name of the note or underline the rectangle or something, or use another color more clear.The issue is to use colors and graphics resources, how much moreflatter and simpler the better.

fladd · May 20, 2016, 6:39pm

Renoise can be as complex as desired, provided it retains the simplicity of the basic functions.If so, the novice user will not have problems understanding at all. Include a piano roll could be useful. It turns out that his inclusion simplifies understanding of what happens in the pattern.But we must not forget that Renoise is a tracker.The piano roll must conform to Renoise, not vice versa. The pianoroll for Renoise need not be a standard pianoroll…

If a Renoise piano roll does not solve the same problem as a standard piano roll, then there is no point of having one.

Raul · May 20, 2016, 7:05pm

If a Renoise piano roll does not solve the same problem as a standard piano roll, then there is no point of having one.

No! Renoise may have a piano roll better than a standard piano roll.Is not the same.In fact, it is better because it is integrated into a tracker. With this it is all said.

Mark2 · May 20, 2016, 7:13pm

If a Renoise piano roll does not solve the same problem as a standard piano roll, then there is no point of having one.

This is right. For me the question is: Should a separate piano-roll be able to create/view any Renoise pattern? I think, the answer should be yes, and then I think, the “reflection code” would be quite hard to do and reminds me of duplication: When a feature is to be added e.g. like “warp notes” (lengthen a block by an arbitrary factor), it would have to be added to both editors or one will fall behind and be rendered useless.

Raul · May 20, 2016, 7:20pm

This is right. For me the question is: Should a separate piano-roll be able to create/view any Renoise pattern? I think, the answer should be yes, and then I think, the “reflection code” would be quite hard to do and reminds me of duplication: When a feature is to be added e.g. like “warp notes” (lengthen a block by an arbitrary factor), it would have to be added to both editors or one will fall behind and be rendered useless.

This “piano roll”,or whatever you want to call, would be integrated into the Pattern Editor.There is nothing to gets lost.It is another part of the Pattern Editor.It does not replace anything.Everything works in harmony. No problem.

Mark2 · May 20, 2016, 7:39pm

Hi Mark2

Screenshots show a solution that does not exist.To make this possible, Renoise need to support 120 notes (10 octaves) inside the track.You can use a base note to move between octaves. The reference is the “C-” = Do. But,
also you can scroll horizontally all the columns, to the right or left.It’s a quick way to represent something big in a small space.At the end of the runway there may be a “base note”:

Base notes: C-0, C-1,C-2,C-3,C-4,C-5,C-6,C-7,C-8,C-9. It would be a method to move fast, especially in Mode 2. Per example:

if you use the note base C-4 in Mode 1, the Pattern Editor show 3 octaves, 4, 5 and 6.

if you use the note base C-2 in Mode 1, the Pattern Editor show 3 octaves, 2, 3 and 4.

Everything depends on the chosen to represent graphic design.

Many instruments use one or two octaves as much. A complex topic piano could use 3, 4, or 5 octaves.
In fact, the workspace in most cases is smaller than those 120 notes because the instruments are not able to reproduce many octaves. This goes in favor for the whole topic.

In the screenshots is referenced octaves precisely. Most instruments are limited in few octaves, 1 or 2. The other day I composed a piano theme. I used only 3 octaves. I did not need more. In the end everything is simpler. What happens to the program, you need to think big, to avoid the limitations. Precisely why there are so many discussions on a piano roll.Everything seems bigger than it really is.

I like many aspects of your concept. But admittedly I ignored the modes you presented, because I would like at maximum the modes “track” and “pianoroll”. More is too many, because modes in your concept seem to be sets of things. But I think I’d rather like independent atomic (smallest possible features) modes like:

Sort notes by key from left to right (sort-once or keep-sorted)
Display space wasters to give piano-roll look (example: when there is a C-4 and D#4 from left to right, display two space-waste-columns inbetween them)
Draw “piano-roll-note” boxes from each note-on to its note-off
Display whitish/blackish background colors in columns, when they are flat/sharp

I’d like to switch on/off 1) 2) 3) and 4) all independently**. Renoise patterns being what they are, I would be able to understand these changes at least.

(I have btw. never clicked on the piano keys picture in a piano-roll, it’s a baby toy. Well, in FL-Studio you can use it to select a range of keys for those who need it.)

**well, activating 2) or 4) probably needs 1) to be activated

fladd · May 20, 2016, 7:43pm

With this it is all said.

Glad we talked about it.

Raul · May 20, 2016, 8:50pm

Glad we talked about it.

Of course, for this are these forums.You can find many ideas. Some better, some worse, and together discuss. That’s just wonderful.

Raul · May 20, 2016, 8:56pm

(I have btw. never clicked on the piano keys picture in a piano-roll, it’s a baby toy. Well, in FL-Studio you can use it to select a range of keys for those who need it.)

One of the things I like least about Renoise is that the virtual piano in Instrument Editor has hardly functions supported with the mouse.It could be very useful to locate the required note pitch, for example.

In the case of adding a piano roll like this, the virtual keyboard should count for something, not just for visual aid, but also editing tool with the mouse.You can create as many advanced things …

And all this does not make it complicated to manage, quite the opposite.

Bungle · May 21, 2016, 6:07am

If a Renoise piano roll does not solve the same problem as a standard piano roll, then there is no point of having one.

Could not agree with this more.

No disrespect to the OP making the pictures, obviously spent time on this, but it has one major floor, it is just a tracker with some red overlays, it is as much like a piano roll as a drum step editor, yes they trigger notes, but they are very very different beasts, and unfortunately so is your design.

Not sure how many times this needs to be explained, a wheel tends to not get reinvented, because it works, it will always work, a piano roll can not and should not be reinvented, it works and will always work, not saying don’t design new things, but don’t design new things and call them a piano roll, sure fire way of hitting the fail button.

Raul · May 21, 2016, 11:02am

Could not agree with this more.

No disrespect to the OP making the pictures, obviously spent time on this, but it has one major floor, it is just a tracker with some red overlays, it is as much like a piano roll as a drum step editor, yes they trigger notes, but they are very very different beasts, and unfortunately so is your design.

Not sure how many times this needs to be explained, a wheel tends to not get reinvented, because it works, it will always work, a piano roll can not and should not be reinvented, it works and will always work, not saying don’t design new things, but don’t design new things and call them a piano roll, sure fire way of hitting the fail button.

Hi Bungle.This idea serves to incorporate a useful tool, that works and work in harmony with Renoise.Despite what some people think, they do not seem to understand the concept, this idea could be just like a piano roll, exactly the same.Only it looks vertically.But also it may have other functions, adjusted to Renoise. Missing more!This is not to invent anything. It is taking a useful concept and use it. It depends on developers to implement it or not.We need to imagine a little beyond the screenshots.

The advantage of this idea is that you can use a vertical pianoroll, with the best advantages of a standard piano roll (he does not need to be sophisticated), and visually jump directly to all functions of the tracker. Honestly, this is the best that could have Renoise in the future.That would be the way.Do not forget at any time that this idea should work in harmony with the Matrix Editor.

Yes, it is much easier to add a piano roll horizontally underneath, so that some are not allowed to break the head,covering the area of Automation Editor. No, better fill the screen horizontally, above the Automation Editor. Oh no, better fill all the screen in horizontally. Oh no, better to replace the tracker.

I repeat again and it is my opinion. If someday include a piano roll, the piano roll must conform to Renoise, working as backing, and not vice versa.The chances of a vertical pianoroll similar to this concept, well designed, not a screenshot representing an outline, would compare many tracks at a glance, taking one or two screens. You will drool!You have several tracks in mode"piano roll" running to pleasure!Why? Because it is integrated into the Pattern Editor.

Perhaps the word “integrate” is too big for some, I included.And maybe I’m wrong, and this topic not the best concept. I would like to hear current elaborate ideas about this.

danoise · May 21, 2016, 11:45am

Throwing the tracker heritage out of the window to make things the “traditional way” is the same as forgetting something important in the process. For example, you have those little numbers next to the note. Volume, panning you say? On a per-note level? I can hear someone say “wow, that’s so easy and obvious”.

In a traditional pianoroll, you see the volume as part of the note but in order to change it’s value you then have these bars underneath. That was never an optimal solution.

So, what’s nice about thinking “in the box” (from a tracker perspective) is that you also tend to think in terms of a keyboard based workflow. And essentially, the pianoroll is nothing more than a view of pitch relationships. That’s what is so useful about it.

To me this whole topic is not as much about a piano roll as much as it is a chance to give the pattern editor a critical look. And as such, I think it’s a good discussion to have.

Raul · May 21, 2016, 2:27pm

More screenshots squeezing this idea (equivalent to “Mode 3”).It is an sketch of what could be. Obviously, each column would have written different notes.Graphically it intuits how it works.

6738

The track can be extended horizontally from the top color bar.You could even add a sliding vertical zoom bar to the right of the editor (Perhaps this would be asking too much.).

Select a note at random.Deactivates the Piano Mode or change the Mode. Appears the Mode Tracker traditional. Change VOL, PAN, DLY, etc. of the note.Simple and very fast!

Of course, must work in harmony with the Matrix Editor also.

Enlarged image:

6739

Enjoy!

Jonas · May 22, 2016, 2:34am

OT; When emulating arcade shmup’s in emulators like mame, there’s an option in the preferences to tilt the video output especially for vertical schmups. So one can flip the monitor for optimal emulation of the original, moar vertical space.

Examples of vertical shmup’s; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twe2uKsWxqE

Will never happen in Renoise & I think losing horizontal info would make a shittier tracking experience, but for a vertical piano roll more space would be needed imo / better overview.

Raul · May 22, 2016, 10:32am

Hi Djeroek.I like the program Rondo as an example.You can see another example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F7GNQAO4T4

However, it is not exactly fits this idea.

Will never happen in Renoise & I think losing horizontal info would make a shittier tracking experience, but for a vertical piano roll more space would be needed imo / better overview.

You need to think that with this idea, you do not have a single roll of piano, you have all tracks with piano roll. You can hide the tracks bother to compare between tracks.You can expand the track to show 10 octaves in vertical, occupying the entire screen vertically.The concept is almost perfect!I have seen other solutions other forum members to implement a pianoroll vertically, and not integrated as desirable.Ask impossible that transform Renoise.The best solution is the complete integration into the tracker.

To get an overview of what is happening with the song, you should keep in mind at all times the Matrix Editor.If not, the composer must understand visually what serves the Matrix Editor.Only then, he will have a global vision of the whole. Plead need a little more room to cram a pianoroll,it is even absurd.You will always need the Matrix editor for a vision together.The space that becomes in Pattern Editor using the Matrix Editoris often practically square.

But it’s more if you need more space, then it is best to buy a larger screen monitor 27, 32" (higher resolution) or add a “Vertical Zoom Function” (a feature already complex).It is not a problem to choose between horizontal or vertical (it may hurt this phrase, but nobody thinks about it, however, if people think the horizontal pianorolls and other DAWs as an excuse shit, ignoring who have a advanced tracker front of their noses).

Who will you to please?Users of other DAWs or users of Renoise?We must be courageous!Yes, if Renoise had an upright piano roll, would be the only vertically pianoroll DAW. Oh my God, Renoise isthe only DAW based on an ADVANCED TRACKER in the world!!!.

Courage and address the needs of Renoise is what will be great, not please users who want, note some irony, as babies have a standard horizontal pianoroll, because it’s what they know.Open the mind and be courageous.Analyze screenshots in comment #36contemplating all parts of Renoise (Pattern Editor, Pattern Matrix and Automation Editor).It is no more than a vague concepthow big this could be.

Alexander_M_Korn · May 22, 2016, 11:39am

I also think that piano roll that show all tracks side by side could be a nice advantage. I know other solutions from other DAWs where multiple note tracks are displayed at once too. The notes of different tracks of course in different colours but displaying the same notes in differnet tracks is a mess. on the other hand this note overlaps happens not very often , isn’t it?

joule · May 22, 2016, 12:43pm

Tried to script a stupid piano roll Personally I think a piano roll should be very compact and therefor something separate to the track editor. Anyway, fun and potentially useful stuff even when made this simple.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdRDhQheBcQ

(This tool concept can be quite handy for other stuff as well, like quickly painting blocks or using the pattern editor as a mouse driven step sequencer. Sometimes a mouse is faster than a keyboard.)