All musicians should recognize that there is at least a loose hierarchy to the way we experience music.
The ear and the voice and body in general will always be the best tools one can use to “comprehend” musicality. If any of these are deficient, the eye can supplement at times. But ultimately it is no substitute for the ear!
No interference, on the contrary, you made two very beautiful interventions, and even though I’m 29, reading you makes me feel a bit sixteen! ahah we can definitely change the subject and I imagine you are all tired of discussing the piano roll, being a curious person I just needed to better understand some thoughts on the matter and I managed to do so, as far as I’m concerned we can go further but I don’t think I’m capable to discuss how to improve Renoise since I still have to understand the more advanced aspects… Usually I just read those discussions because you often talk about things I don’t know haha, my first post here in the forum was the request for a feature which in reality was already there but I hadn’t found it yet, so it’s better if I keep out of certain discussions and let those who really know how the software could improve speak. At most I could say what I would like, but it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s useful… (piano roll?? I’m joking, I’ll stop I swear hahaha) I honestly have no ideas, because at least until now everything works as it should and if something doesn’t work, I’m simply the one who doesn’t understand it 100%
spectacular. And yes please, I do not by any means wish to say your voice is not welcome or desired in any area. Totally the opposite. I appreciate your candor and viewpoint 
I can certainly guarantee that would look like a complete nightmare in a track. And it also looks like it is maxing out what a single track in Renoise could even handle. 
TLDR
Please summarize all this content in three sentences. Is there any essence or can this be deleted?
(I took some help…)
In a world where music production debates rage like pineapple on pizza, the Renoise forums light up with a comedic opera over the age-old battle of piano rolls versus trackers. Picture a motley crew of music makers, passionately defending their workflows with the fervor of knights jousting over CPU usage, as they navigate the treacherous waters of tradition versus innovation. The punchline? Despite the cacophony, everyone’s in harmony about wanting the best tools for their art, even if they can’t agree on what those look like.
I was really hoping someone would do this
To be fair, the concept of a piano roll dates back to the 19th century with player pianos, actually the “roll” part never even made it to software.
Somewhat long and only loosely related but I enjoyed this video about the history of music notation, although annoyingly, it doesn’t mention trackers at all IIRC.
Personally, I am really interested in some new way to represent music in software, because evidently both piano rolls and trackers have shortcomings, that we might be able to solve if we keep an open mind. I guess the power of software has always been the dynamic nature, so dynamic notation that can morph the representation depending on how you look at it might be the answer. In this sense having both the tracker view and a piano roll is a good step, but it’s a bit too binary I think.
For now the only really NEW thing I know is Blockhead, a just launched DAW, it’s not even at version 1, the developer just started showing his work to the public a few months ago and started building a community to see together how to evolve the software, it doesn’t even have MIDI for now (or rather, my version doesn’t have MIDI, I don’t know if it has been added… anyway… those curious who want to take a look at it have to deal with the mouse or ignore it…But it is not (and probably never will be) a DAW designed for musicians in the traditional sense, instead it seems like an innovative bomb for electronic music and sound design, but these are only first impressions. It is difficult to say for sure where it can bring his approach because it is quite different from what we know, maybe it will be a failed experiment and next year no one will remember it anymore… But at least someone is trying to create something new and not just copy products to fit into a business. Interesting features: it does not have the concept of BPM, the developer explains that he considers it absurd and senseless that as soon as you open a DAW you are asked to choose the tempo you will use…You might not know it, you might want to proceed a little randomly and " let’s see what comes out", in fact many times I started productions at one speed and then increased or decreased it during the work because the creativity of the moment took me in another direction, so here we begin to compose freely, going by ear , and then if desired there is a kind of meter that extends along the track, and that acts as a metronome/clock and only works when there is music under the meter, so if you have 8 bars of music and 4 of clock, 4 bars will be clocked and 4 not. If you want to make speed alterations in the song, just lay out different meters. In my opinion it’s a much more functional time management and when I saw it I thought “hey, why had no one ever thought of this before?” Also it’s a modular DAW, you can create a block (in this DAW “block” is almost synonymous with project (similar to Reaper subprojects, if anyone knows them) which I would insert into another block which you will insert into another block which you will insert in another block…And when you use modulations on the blocks, the blocks inside the main one are also modulated…It’s a real frenzy, it’s quicker to go and watch a video on YouTube (name of the developer: Colugo)
Oh yeah, I am familiar with Blockhead and keeping an eye on it for sure, Manhattan seems also cool although I haven’t tried it yet, it seems to merge the generative aspects of composition in software with static notation (which is also a very interesting goal one can have like the Stochas project), I also like the stuff that Radium tries to do with the frankenstein tracker/piano/waveform display.
I’ve never heard Manhattan but from what you say I could really enjoy it, lately I’m very interested in hypnotic sequences mixed with generative stuff that breaks the hypnosis a bit (otherwise it becomes unsustainable), never heard of Radium either. I know how to spend the evening… 
I know Stochas (I’ve looked for him a lot these days but I couldn’t remember the name), but I’ve never managed to do much, which is why I wanted to try again
Dunno if you’ve played with phrases in renoise much, but they allow for lpb values independent of the project LPB, so it’s real easy to create polyrhythms, polymeters, rhythmic dissonances, etc. it’s definitely not as freeform as blockhead’s approach (which is cool af), but allows for a lot of interesting flexibility in timing, especially if you’re working at a higher lpb value
I’m not yet very familiar with the phrases, I don’t really understand how to use them, both from a universal technical point of view and from a personal point of view. I tried to experiment a few times, I saw that I can write a chord in the phrase and then play the chords with just one button, but then I realized that the chord is not in tune on all the buttons, so I asked myself "where Is it useful? Is better write in the pattern editor… but this also happened to me with FL’s Transistor Bass, which has an integrated sequencer (it’s essentially a 303 emulation) and so in some way it’s as if I used the phrases…But I didn’t use them, I only exploited the FL patterns because that way I felt better…It must also be said that I am a lazy person at least as much as I am curious, so if I decide to learn something and I I spend more than 10 minutes, I probably decide I can do without it hahaha (I’m wrong, I know)
If you turn on scale lock, then all chord notes will be in key 
Can make some cool custom arpeggios this way
Phrases are one of renoise’s superpowers. There’s a ton of cool stuff you can do w them
It can’t look worse than that. In Renoise all the notes could be recognized at a glance, regardless of the octaves. Everything can be shown in a tiny space, whereas piano rolls need a lot of space and therefore the distances between the notes that are shown are quite long. And if one track (that can include up to 12 note columns) isn’t enough, you could simply duplicate the track and use its neighbor to continue your work, just like it’s one single track. 
Sounds like groups to me.
Have fun with the messiest tracker that I’ve ever seen. 
It has some “features” like vertical waveforms that some single persons would also like to see in Renoise, too. Luckily Renoise stays clean and handy and unnecessary stuff won’t be implemented. That’s why I like it.
Sometimes, however, useless things are beautiful like having 5000 themes for a software, or like the graphics of a plugin… from a technical point of view this thing is rubbish, I have to make music… I need plugins work correctly without ruining the audio, I don’t need graphics very similar to that famous hardware (maybe just the graphics), which will force me to buy a new computer otherwise I can’t manage the load … .Yet I’m happy that all these hardware emulations exist because it’s probably exactly what (when I was kid) led me on the path of mix&master, without those damned very neat graphics that suggest you mount a small dedicated graphics card on your computer. …maybe i wouldn’t know how to use the plugins, because it was Waves Api2500 that burned my brain…I don’t even know why, I looked at it and thought “you’re beautiful, I want you” ahahahah
Blocks are not like groups, they are a very flexible and ad-hoc method of applying effects and modulations to things at arbitrary positions on the timeline, whereas groups in Renoise organize tracks and apply effects to them on a per-project basis.
I recommend watching a video on Blockhead to see how it works, it’s pretty cool.
I’m watching a video of Colugo on Renoise (7 years ago) do we have a genius among us??? 
(aside from everyone else, I say)
Link?
Nothing musically exciting, just exploring a vst
