Question about modes of weirder scales


(lettuce) #1

How can I work out all the relative modes ( not parallel ) for ‘Diminished whole-half’ scale and ‘Whole tone scale’?

On wikipedia it says ‘Whole tone’ has no ‘leading tone’ or ‘tonic’, all chords that can be generated from it are augmented and that it can only be played from two starting notes, but it does not list the modes of it. ‘Diminished ( whole-half )’ sounds so confusing as well…if anyone know anything about getting the relative modes out of these types of scales, please give me some tips, explantion.

C DIMINISHED ( WHOLE-HALF ) :

( has eight notes )

W H W H W H W H
M2 m3 P4 d5 m6 M6 M7 P8

Sequencer : C D D# F F# G# A B

1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 6 7

Traditional : C D Eb F Gb Ab A B

C WHOLE TONE :

( has six notes )

W W W W W W
M2 M3 A4 A5 A6 P8

Sequencer : C D E F# G# A#

1 2 3 #4 #5 #6

Traditional : C D E F# G# A#

The other one that is confusing for me ( but it should have modes i think ) is ‘Lydian b7’…

Its already a lydian mode, so just like harmonic minor is a minor mode, but can still have modes drawn out from it, it should be o.k to say lydian b7 mode 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7…any idea how to name them?

C LYDIAN FLAT SEVEN :

W W W H W H W
M2 M3 A4 P5 M6 m7 P8

[also known as C lydian dominant]

Sequencer : C D E F# G A A#

1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7

Traditional : C D E F# G A Bb


(Paul Buck) #2

It’s all whole tone. I don’t think the modes get names because it’s just another whole tone scale starting on a different note. G whole tone’s second mode is A whole tone, third is B whole tone, etc etc. Makes sense to me anyways. Don’t know about whole half. Good luck.


(lettuce) #3

I think the relative modes are just starting the scale from another note, like below, while the parallel modes are two different modes with the same root note. For example C Major and C minor.

So I think whats written below is how the structure of these modes should be but what can I call them other than ‘mode 1’, ‘mode 2’ and so on?

I have no idea for diminished scale and whole tone scale, but for Lydian b7 it is a lydian mode itself, so presumably starting from the second note it should be 'mixolydian - flat something - sharp something ( because the order of the modes is ionian, dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, aeolian, locrian ).

If anyone knows, please drop some tips and knowledge yo.

( I dont mean to sound like a dick with all this music theory stuff. I know it sounds like someone trying to be ‘highfallutin’ or whatever ).

so yeh, ( shiver me timbers ), if you have the music theory know how, please feel free to wield it here like a pro.

C DIMINISHED ( WHOLE-HALF ) :

mode 1 : C D Eb F Gb Ab A B

mode 2 : D Eb F Gb Ab A B C

mode 3 : Eb F Gb Ab A B C D

mode 4 : F Gb Ab A B C D Eb

mode 5 : Gb Ab A B C D Eb F

mode 6 : A B C D Eb F Gb Ab

mode 7 : B C Eb F Gb Ab A B

C WHOLE TONE :

mode 1 : C D E F# G# A#

mode 2 : D E F# G# A# C

mode 3 : E F# G# A# C D

mode 4 : F# G# A# C D E

mode 5 : G# A# C D E F#

mode 6 : A# C D E F# G#

C LYDIAN FLAT SEVEN :

mode 1 : C D E F# G A Bb

mode 2 : D E F# G A Bb C

mode 3 : E F# G A Bb C D

mode 4 : F# G A Bb C D E

mode 5 : G A Bb C D E F#

mode 6 : A Bb C D E F# G

mode 7 : Bb C D E F# G A


(Paul Buck) #4

No. I’m fully aware of how modes work. My point was in specific reference to the whole tone scale. Why name a mode of a scale that is identical to the scale? That’s the beauty of the whole tone scale. Every “mode” of it is the same pattern. Whole tone. Seriously, if there are true names to whole tone “modes” and they’re not totally ridiculous names like:
Frippadidian
Gnargyian
Kropotkian

Then I will be very upset and the logic side of my brain may throw a tizzy.

But what do I know, I certainly don’t have a degree in theory.


(lettuce) #5

lol, yeah fuck it. I’ll just call them ‘mode 1’, ‘mode 2’ and so on.

O.k let me test your claim about the intervals pattern being the same in all modes of whole tone.

Mode 1

C D E F# G# A#

2 2 2 2 2 ( W W W W W )

MOde 2

D E F# G# A# C

2 2 2 2 2 ( W W W W W )

Yes you are right, its whole tones and augmented chords all round…

quite nice


(Paul Buck) #6

Awesome. I learned all the modes and theory that I know on the guitar, so I am very keen to patterns. If I can find my Grimoire I’ll look up what it says about whole half. Until then, my favorite whole tone jam.


(lettuce) #7

That tune somehow reminds me of the southpark theme song and southbound pchyderm by primus…they are probably not in whole tone, should train up my ears ( for scale recogition ) more.