Random Function

A live drummer never plays its sounds for even 2 tacts
by the same time shift; principle of contingency.
But that’s what makes it real and creates the groove !

A tracker sounds like a machine if you don’t use background-loops.
even the shuffle function of fruityloops3.5 is just a one time set funtion.

And this FT2 option to change the speed between 5+6 or whatever,
does not satisfy me. because it still repeats a programmed function.

Manually editing the time shift between 256 single steps
for 36 patterns would take much time.

So for me samples should be taken at random.

And this is not because i’m lazy :)
i’t because I want to create a authentic sound
especially for drumloops.
I can drum loops from 32 tacts by 2 Hands into the step sequencer
of my JX-305, and I have a shuffle function but there I can’t cut or reverse the samples. That’s for what I’m using trackink progz.
then I can combine the sounds in cubase or logic.

It could be a nice option to have a editable random function,
where you can set the range for the time shift up to 256 steps.
so you could for example set the range for the shift
from 1 to 53ms for step 1 to 13 and
from 13 to 71ms for step 207 to 236;
or just for the whole track or single patterns

So after each other rendered waves would sound unsimilar.

I’m not sure if it’ possible to realize,
but it would put tracking into a new dimension; the chaos theory.

…was just brainstorming…

stay tuned

such a random shuffle is not always good.

also, the resolution of renoise has to improve much, because right now its not possible to delay notes in 256 substeps.

however, one way is to track with a speed of 16, you can then use the delay command in the pan-row with values from d0 to df, which is still very coarse but the best we can get …

and something I forgot to add … groove isnt only about notes being delayed, its also sometimes about playing notes abit earlier … and its very hard to do that with trackers at the moment.

I see. :(

will try this d0/df function…

I know random function is not alway necessary,
just want to be armed for the worst case :)
but I wonder how to create a usable random function in general;
don’t know a prog which does it properly and authentic…

the mousewheel control is a fantastic, well done !!!

When I turn the wheel in some kind of a Rhythm
while playing, so the written drumloop pattern
becomes a “touch” of random.
works just without drum- or soundloop files,
and I can’t do it all the time.
sometimes this sounds better than the written pattern,
or it creates some interresting fill-inns and delay’s,
because the soundcard keeps the speed.
but it’s not possible to control it properly.
but it could be interresting to record this in realtime, for using parts of it.
or adding a function to record moves of the mousewheel…
what means “jumping” back or “overjumpin” steps in realtime
in a fast way…

…just an idea…

stay tuned

wanting a better randomization and using drumloops at the same time looks quite funny to me… <_<

I’m just interrested in both posibilities;
interrested in all kinds of creating music.
because I study audio-engineering.

it always depends on the style of the track and my inner mood
if I use drumloops, melodysamples or single sounds.
I got 2 synthesizers, a piano, a drum-machine and an effect board,
so I resample my own melodies and beats, and mix them to whatever.

but also love just playing piano.

a tracker is the fastes tool I know for
creating “sampling bricolages”, but I would never
use it for midi sequencing. :ph34r:

the best results for programmed drumloops,
I’ve got with FL3.5, using single drumsamples.
but for me FL is not really a tracker… ;)

but no other tracker (since 1998) was able to get the wanted groove,
without using parts of drumloops.

and I’m not really satisfied if it grooves just “a little bit”…

that’s why I thought editable randomization would be the best solution
for authentic drumloops with single drumsounds.

I don’t worry , if renoise doesn’t feature this in future. :)
I will use renoise anyway.

stay tuned

One easy possibility would be if the groove / shuffle settings would be part of the mastertrack (as a metadevice) and you could apply an lfo or your own programmed settings via patterneffects on it.
Using a noise as the LFO source would also give you this small human/random feeling :)

I think a groove quantize as an advancededit operation would be the best. That could give a lot more flexible control of the groove. I imagine using random values on playback can cause a lot of frustration, because at the moment you find that perfect groove, it’s lost, and the next time it might sound strange. Also, an offline (not realtime) operation can easily put notes earlier as well. Using noise as a part of the operation is not a bad idea though. Even better, some sort of bandlimited noise would probably give great results.

(White noise gives an even distribution of the values, so the chance for a note to be hit at the max or min deviation from the original time would be just as probable as hitting the original time. With bandlimited noise you could control the distribution, making most of the hits closer to the original. If anyone wants to know more about this, google “Perlin noise”. That particular type of noise is used a lot in computer graphics for more organic effects).

Nevertheless, we need a higher time resolution for this to be particulary useful.

we indeed need that … I am currently working on something which is supposed to sound abit like a record which did lay on an oven, and altough I am using a speed of 16 is kinda hard to program drums for it. some of the off-basedrums sound good at d6 and d7, but d5 or d8 is totally off … so to make it feel organic all I can do is jump between 6 and 7 all the time, and you hear that after a while. also, the difference between d6 and d7 is huuuge (the song is something around 97 bpm) and clearly audible … we really really need a higher resolution.

higher time-resolution would be great anyway.

but something like a “perlin noise principle” random-mode
would be nearly perfect, if its fine valueable…
in single or multitrack mode.
so you could create a rhythmic “hihat-rain”…

it’s possible to create random pictures based on an equalizergraph.
so I think it should be possible to create random loop varietys based
on a fixed tracked rhythm structure,
by a small random shoving (+/-) of single steps.
random values in playback mode should be protocolled
in a saveable file, so they could be renoised.

Why don’t you contact Mr. Ken Perlin for a suggestion ? :)

could also be just something like unfixing/unlock the steps of a pattern/track, not for random play/render,
just for shoving single steps for +/-(xx) units by stopped pattern.
would just be hard to keep the overview…

stay tuned

Better even, let’s have programmable noise generation formulas with fractal and random presets. Let’s then apply those formulas to notes pitch, envelopes, effects, as LFOs. Artificial life in music - now that would make Renoise a totally unique composition tool. :ph34r:

But to the point - note microdelays are just one way to make drum tracks sound less mechanic - not the best one probably, as they could make the tracks sound like a crappy drummer’s play :) .

IMHO a better way to introduce artificial life into drum tracks would be by means of a velocity randomizer that would add an amount of noise within a selected range to each note’s velosity (could produce very good results with multilayered drumkits) and note probability. Note probability values could be specified in a ‘note probability column’, with a value range of 0…f . This would allow for placing ‘variation notes’ in the drum track that would only get played once a while adding the desired randomness. I don’t think this would be very hard to implement - in fact I remember seeing something like this in one of the drum machines in Buzz.

Later on, when the arranger and note clips are introduced, a probability parameter could be implemented for clips. This would make it possible to create ‘variation clips’ - groups of notes played with certain probability.

Then there could be an option of placing multiple clips in a track and chosing the probability for each of them - so that each time a random ‘version’ is chosen to play.

Then there could also be an automatable ‘variation intensity curve’ that would act as a probability multiplier. With low curve values the variation notes would hardly ever get played and with high values they would be played most of the time. This could allow for changing general song tension without having to touch individual notes. A perfect jam machine…

Then … I’d probably wake up :o :blink: :unsure: :huh: :) :D :lol:

Well, just treat those as suggestions for Renoise 3.0. Except for those on velosity randomizer and note probability. Would be nice to have those functions and they don’t seem very hard to implement.


I dont have renoise on this computer, so i could’nt possibly test this…
Can’t you just write Fxxx or what it was you wanted and humanize it?