Yes, there are different mp3 decoder algorithms, each sounding a little different. Madplay is sonically preffered the best so I have heard, “lame --decode” is also not bad. Likewise, there are different dithering algorithms, with POWr leading the pack. I’d like to know what Renoise implements, probably standard white noise dithering? You see, in an app like Soundforge one can choose what options for dithering: things like noise shaping with or without filtering (so that only high frequencies are noise shaped).
Perhaps we can run some tests with a 32-bit ditherless render putting it through different ditherers: Soundforge, Cubase, Waves L2. You see, I always dither in Soundforge or Audition or L2 since I always do some limiting (usually Waves L2) on my rendered tracks. And dithering should be done only once in the last step of the digital audio process (as quoted by Bob Katz).
Although I’ve just wrote a whole post about dithering, I agree with J Swift and it could be much more or something different to blame. Though dithering is a process where the high fequencies are effected, which is what people are experiencing. Still I’d like some audio examples, anyone (not home at the moment to do this myself…)?
You know, I think there’s even more to it than bit-depths, dithering and shaping…
Those effects are often quite subtle… At least in contrast to the plastic-noise of FLoops vs the DAT-like clarity of Nuendo/SX…
One of the best ways to test an audio engine is with really realistic sounding metallic top-end… No Logic brings out the metallic quality in a breakbeat like nothing else… But try the same sample in Reason and it’s just noise.
I’m sure I’ve heard of developers talking about playback filters or something? Maybe one of the Renoise team can shed some light?
17 months ago, my friend from polish computer-audio-recording website annouced test of several audio applications. During this tests we were trying to compare audio quality of applications:
MOTU Digital Performer 4.12 (Mac G5)
Logic Audio Platinum 6.3.3 (Mac G5)
Logic Audio Platinum 5.5.1 (PC Win XP)
Steinberg Cubase SX 2 (PC Win XP)
SEK’D Samplitude 7 (PC Win XP)
Pro Tools 5.5.3 (Mac G5)
Steinberg Nuendo 1.6 (PC Win XP)
We already knew that there should be no differences between mixdowned material It was the perfect Mac vs PC showdown - without winners, at all.
Source material - 8x4 min tracks from studio session - was recorded in 16/44 kHz. First time, we were downmxing/rendering them to 24 bit files - in almost every application, the result file had the same peak level (-3,89 dB), and mixing two files (one of them phase inverted) resulted with perfect silence.
I put the word - almost. Because Logic for PC rendered (Bounce and Digital Mixdown, both) file louder about 1,5 dB. But only in 24bit mode for rendered file. The 16 bit resolution for all applications scored the same: -3,89 dB.
We were listening to the mixed material several times, on ADAM P-11A/P22A monitors and performed “invert phase” tests resulting in complete absolute silence.
So, there is no chance that mixing audiotracks on different sequencers can deliver different sound, but… there is always a catch
We haven’t used any addidtional plugins (there is possibility that on different platforms thay may produce a little different sound) or bonus dithering algorithms (like UV in Steinberg products). Master volume was always at 0dB position, we’ve been forced to turn off Panning Law settings in Steinberg systems. And it shouldn’t be compared to tracker-related software in any way.
FLoops certainly sounds much better rendered - In fact, it sounds like a completely different app, which makes mixing properly on it almost completely impossible…
But most of us lot need to use analogue desks and live processing for mixdowns, so it’s all about the real-time playback…
you know that in FL you can set the REALTIME mixing interpolation?
they are the same as the ones for rendering.
from linear through 6-point hermite to sinc-depth256?
Well I used to find the rendered output had a much stronger top-end (FLStudio 4) - The sound quality of FLoops has always been pretty recognisable though, regardless…
It really works for some people… I love it with grime tracks… But it’s so damn recognisable… I found everything I did sounded the same… Platicey, lo-fi digital - Rendered or otherwise… Also got very messy with more than a few tracks in there.
I think it’s the worst sounding audio app I’ve ever used… Maybe not quite as warped as Reason (which completely messes around with everything), but Reason’s sound is a little more pleasant to my ears…
Sorry for bringing this (dead) topic up again, but I was just at a friends house, and we listened to alot of music on his stereo, mostly original CDs of tech-house, before I let him listen to one of my new tunes, and the feeling I got was that the Renoise-produced tune felt alot more “boxed”, sort of…
The other CDs had more… “depth”(?), all in all it just sounded more professional, and I turned to my friend and asked him if he heard a difference. He didn’t agree at first, but when we then compared again he was sure he could hear a difference.
Sorry for bringing this up again, but it’s just really annoying at times. Just wish I knew what I could do to make the songs sound more pro, fuller. I am mostly happy with the quality, “mostly” meaning whenever I don’t listen to songs made with other sequencers. It’s a relative problem I guess… Still…
I probably COULD go on the Master Track in Renoise and choose StereoExpander, put it on full, but I don’t think it’d be the same.
You can do worse sounding music with any application. There is no magic that you can turn on in a sample interpolation routine or whatever to make everything sound great.
Was the stuff that you listened to was mastered by someone who does this professionally? Was yours not? This can make a big difference, and this is something which is not that obvious at the first sight, but influences on how the stuff “feels”.
It gets even worse: having the best interpolation routine on earth or perfect filter doesnt has to mean that it sound great at the end. You are the one who decides if something sounds great or not at every single step in the processing chain. If the Renoise filter doesnt work for you, use one of the 200 other VST filters… At the end its you who does this sound and not the software.
Just my imho. If I would have find a way to make everything sound great, it would be part of this software.
Not only is your tune not mastered (by a skilled professional).
Your mixing/production skills may not be of the same level.
They may be using better sounding plugins (which are not dependant on the app).
Hardware may be used. A hardware sampler like an Emu sounds psycho acousticly better than a sampler VST.
The CD may have been a mix cd, some which are done straight from vinyl, which also impacts the sound.
In short, too many factors other than application can influence this difference, a fair comparison would be making the exact same song in Renoise and a so called pro app. That would be quite a bit of work. Still, I think this is still an interesting topic.
What Ermi is experiencing is panning law, which is different (as default) in Cubase than in Renoise.
Yeah, mastering sure is harder than making the music. Maybe because I had been using FastTracker for 6 years before I discovered Renoise, plug ins, VSTs and DSPs and was actually able to use equalizing, compression and so on.
It was all so much easier back then!
“Ignorance is bliss.”
-Cypher while eating a juicy steak in The Matrix.
For you, me, and most of us here it is. My point is, for mastering engineers, the people that do it professionally, it isn’t. For them individuals it’s the making music part that’s probably more difficult.
it’s a truely innovative plugin pushing soundquality and tightness up upon a buttonclick… one instance weights in at aprx. 12% CPU load here… so it’s not really suitable for realtime processing i guess.
nevertheless really good stuff for post-processing finished stuff, thanks for the link !
eh ya know on this software is not your sound idea, i completely disagree now. i use to agree but after learning renoise and delving into sc3 i cant agree with this anymore. albiet having talent and skill surely does make a software shine but, your software of choice has very much to do with your “sound”. for example, producers who use sony’s acid pro have a distinct sound quality on their cutup amen brother snares & vox, the same is true for trackers. (only they sound superb) hehe. fruityloops has a grainyness, reason has a blurryness, and live has somthing wrong with it that i cant put my finger on. -end rant
a good mastering can change a tune so much that a producer wouldnt believe its the same thing.
Still think a lot of the Renoise sound is the very harsh quantising of automation. You simply can not get gentle changes and this takes away a lot of what you can do, or at least modifies how you have to think about tracks.
Generally a lot of the sound of a host comes from the modus operandi that comes from using that piece of software lending itself to a particular way of working leaning towards a certain sound. Not a bearing on the actual quality of the sound though.
It’s a while now since this has been discussed. But today I compared the sound of Korgs M1 Vsti in Renoise, Mulab, Podium, Reaper, playing the same program again and again, switching between these four applications. It’s not a very scientific way to do this, it’s more about trust to your ears. Unfortunately there was an audible difference between the sound coming out of Reaper, Podium, Mulab compared to Renoise. Renoise was much weaker, while the others seemed to be nearly identic. Renoise was a bit thin to my ears, less clear, dynamic and present. And I’m dead sure that there was no psychology affecting my ears. Maybe a comparison of sample playing would bring different results, but as far as I’m not really playing a lot of samples, it’s not relevant to me. I’m very sad, I’d love to use Renoise. But I can’t buy a plugin because of its high quality sound and then load it into an app that can’t deal with it. It’s really frustrating. I will do this comparison after every update of Renoise, hopeful that this is going to be fixed.
Please provide uncompressed (.wav or .flac) rendered example audio files from each host so that we can compare the output for ourselves. To keep things fair, each host should be configured in exactly the same way in terms of sampling rate, bit-depth, etc., and the exact same sequence of notes should be played using exactly the same preset in the M1 plugin.
