Send Song Positon Pointer To Plugins - Syncing Plug/Host Timelines

ok you locked (closed) the thread before about this problem, but this does not mean that this problem is fixed.
It is NOT fixed in RC 1. ReNoise does definitly NOT send any pattern- or songposition-information to Plug-Ins that need position-informations for to work right. This feature is a – standard-midi-information – (see midi-assoc.-def.) that normally a midi-host (sequencer/tracker) has to have.

  1. one of the problems that results becauser that missing feature: you cannot scroll forward/backward the song, because then plug that need that information going out of sync. Often you then have to restart the whole song and this is very, very :(

  2. you cannot start the song anywhere because then the plug is mostly not at the right position and plays wrong patterns / themes …

and many more disapointing things happens …

Maybe if ReNoise sends informations like sync - MMC / SPP to MIDI-Out and you found a way to “Autoseek” withing a wavefile, then the way is not as so far to implement the feature I´m talking here about. You know your own, that it´s not as hard to implement it. Or (vV) don´t you know what I´m talking about? :slight_smile:

ok, only for you I changed (EDIT) now size of font. Sorry!

Precisely FEATURE! As has been announced many times no more features are going in 2.7 so try posting in the correct forum :P

JdS who´s only member but “Knows nearly Everything and it seems more then GMF About Renoise and other sequencers” :slight_smile: :slight_smile: (sorry, but I like this funny memberdescritptions. gg We could post many threads about whatever, maybe weather or some recipe to cook and will be a superuser fgg).

You can name it “(new) feature”, then this thread has to be post in another forum, but there are resulting some more sync-problems because that. So, because ReNoise tells us it can sync a.s.o it´s a “missing-feature- that produce some bugs – or maybe is it a missing-feature that makes it unusable for that for what it is or … !!!” :slight_smile:

Fine, it´s like taktik wrote that´s a bug from plug-ins if they don´t work in fullscreen mode of Renoise and Ableton Live (both hosts in some kinds the same basic / progr. ;-)). But in real it´s like that: The fullscreen of Live and ReNoise (uuupppssss, looks a little bit similuar in some cases) is a little quirks-mode. So plugs that only looks to do standard-work, may have a problem. It is´nt a bug from any of both !! Fullscreen-mode is´nt standard … important: but really it´s no bug from a plug if it don´t work under that condition.

Maybe: if ReNoisers think it´s only a missing feature then they´ll move this thread … But sorry this is one of the importants basic-feature a program like ReNoise (Tracker / Sequencers / host´s …) has to have. It´s a It´s a – MUST HAVE!! – And if I buy today a sequencer and it does not what it has to do.
When I wrote about this first time, they don´t say that I´m talking about a new feature. And really …

JdS: I know you just want to help and want to get a problem with Renoise fixed, but if you have a problem, then please do describe the problem, and do not try to guess what we have to do in order to realize/fix what you imagine is necessary. This rarely helps, most of the time only causes confusion, cause we then have to decipher what exactly you mean with your imagination of how things work. Aka, let’s please leave away guessing about any tec crap. This is our job.

So let’s please clear the “what’s the problem” first:
If I remember correctly, then its about Motu BPMs behavior when the song is running, BPM has a drum pattern running as well, and you start moving the song position in Renoise. Is that correct?

Plugins constantly get the hosts timeline passed (beat, sample pos, tempo and more) to synchronize themselves. This song position thing (& MIDI clock) is an old MIDI way of synchronizing HW. VST Plugins are somehow based on that, but are way more than virtual MIDI synths. Also how exactly and when they synchronize to the host, is up to the plug. If this is a bug or just Motu BPM’s way of syncing to hosts is something we can only find out by checking how it behaves in other sequencers. If it behaves the same way there, then the only thing we can do here is asking Motu BPM for help.

Because we can’t take over the general help and support for every single plugin in the world, it often makes more sense to contact the plugin developers first. They know what “should” happen in hosts. If this doesn’t they will contact us so we can sort out the tec crap with them.

Quite possibly…

Sorry not going to help here but your use of oversized font (likely due to frustration) is considered shouting, and to be honest quite rude.

Also I find your posts often very hard to follow the thread of what you are actually trying to say. Sometimes less words can equate to more understanding. Try and be concise, rather than verbose on the subject. I’m guessing a lot is down to English maybe not being your first language and I am not meaning to offend with this comment.

You yourself mentioned feature, rather than bug, early in your post. For example MMC is part of the MIDI Specification but it was only in a quite recent version that Renoise got MMC, even though it has had MIDI since before I started using it. MMC was not a big, as Renoise had MIDI but MMC didn’t work, but a feature implementing a sub-section of the MIDI Specification.

I do hope the issue with your plug-in gets resolved nice and easily and sorry if you think I’ve been a bit of an arse.

  1. yes, if you understand my post like that, then you´re right to tell, that nobody has to tell you what to do. As I sayd before: You´re the programmers …

  2. "If I remember correctly, then its about Motu BPMs behavior when the song is running, BPM has a drum pattern running as well, and you start moving the song position in Renoise. Is that correct?"

Yes, but it´s not only because a pattern, it´s too because songmode and oh no, it´s not only BPM … Yes I like BPM very much (Machine too, but a little bit more BPM gg)

  1. No, my intension is NOT that you fix something for ONE Plug!

AND to clear it out:

I´m not often working with ReNoise
(I think I started it 30 times since tested it first and I bought it before a really long time. Ok, because some problems and some bugs I wrote since a long time and nothing happens BUT happens now … Thx for that),
so you´ll not fix it for me. I´m working with (all bought by me and all registered Originals!!!)
Listorder like Prio working: “Sequoia / Samplitude”, “MOTU DP7”, “Apple Logic”, “MM Finale”, “Nuendo / Cubase”, “IL-FL-Studio”, “Cakewalk Sonar X”, “Reason/Record”, “Energy XT”, “MuTools”, sometimes “Ableton Live” (only V. 7) and yes really:
“sometimes” for fun because the most funfactor and finest creativ programm: “ReNoise”
(Ok, I´ll be happy if I can use it more then like to today, but there are some hints like that sync-problem and definitly some AU- / VST-Plug-Patch saveproblems, Memoryusing aso.).
I´m using some more sequencers / trackers and Programms and rare programms … I use all on MAC´s and PC´s and so, before I´ll post something I´ve a look to many other programms and many other variations (sometimes I forget to test in Live because I don´t like it so much)

AND so I´m sorry: I never seen a programm where this sync-position-problem happens with ALL Plugs I tested (and I know about they working with receiving SongpositionPointer or SyncP. aso.). So my first intension was that there is something broken in ReNoise. That´s why I told about a bug. And realy sorry:
I never thought that it will be like that, that ReNoise has NOT this feature at ALL.

Yes: The Plugs synchronized themselve but if the host changed it´s position all plugs need to get the information about the new position. In this case you´re not right (!!!) The own timeline will not be helpfull in that situation . AND ALL, really ALL Host´s I tell about in my list (s.o. “I´m using”) are doing that and mostly the same way. So actually: ONLY and really ONLY ReNoise actually does it not. And I´m sorry about that. Again: sorry that´s why I thought something was broken in ReNoise …) And sorry, that thats a point od discussion and a point I´m frustrated.

I worry and wondering about your comment:
“Because we can’t take over the general help and support for every single plugin in the world, it often makes more sense to contact the plugin developers first. They know what “should” happen in hosts. If this doesn’t they will contact us so we can sort out the tec crap with them.”

If I´ll find the time, I´ll send you a list which plugs will work same way. You´ll wondering, really … I think you don´t know about … OK, and I contacted ReNoisedev. more then one time …

I checked it again and really:

Uuups and sorry, it´s really a bug, because if you change (scroll) manually in the patternwindow (left side) then ReNoise sends some positioninformations in that moment it starts again btw. I leave the mouse.

Example: ReNoise: pattern 1 8 measures / pattern 2 8 measures and so on. If I now scroll to 3. pattern and push startbutton, ReNoise tells EACH plug that will be synced, that the position now is 17. Measures (simple explaination) . Now all plugs start again at right position and in sync.
if I scroll and leave the mouse, ReNoise sends a position too. In the moment you leave mouse.

In that moment I scrolled a little bit in a pattern (trackviev) itselfe while ReNoise is playing all synced Plugs will be out of sync. In this case ReNoise does never send the new position.
AND ReNoise does not send any position if it changed while playing from one pattern to next pattern itself (without manually scrolling in patternview).

In / since (ab dem moment) the moments / while it happens all is out of sync, it will be same resolution out of sync while scrolling in the patternview.
IT SEEMS !!! :-), because patternchange (scrolling) only adds whole pattern resolution (time) to last position (before scrolling) of last pattern and sends that as new position.

Fact: ReNoise sends the right information while restart or scrolling and leave mouse in the patternlist (left side) but not allways the right positiondata. “SEEMS !!!”: ReNoise does not look for the Lineposition / changed Lineposition withing a pattern itselfe.

I think, this will be my last thread for that Version :slight_smile: You´re right I wrote to much … and it´s your job and your product … and you´re the programmers and I know you´re really doing a good job … I never told another thing … Thats why I spent some time in this Forum … And please don´t missunderstand me, it´s not my intension to tell you what and how to do …

I´ll hopefully look to next versions …


No you didn’t.

How about you try to describe your problem?

What happens, and under what circumstances?

What do you expect to happen?

ok, you can´t and don´t know about, that I described my problem(s) / bugs “clearly !!!” long before that version 2.7 directly to support. Because all the problems / bugs I´m talking about happens since many versions before. Nothing changed and so now I wrote them here in the forum :-).
Ok, maybe a wonderous style but because my english is´nt best and the supporter did not let me explain in german here

– (AND of course, there are more then one german supporter / programmer working on ReNoise - it´s really a shame! I thought all my life a Betaforum is for to tell about problems and to fix them and not for to discuss them and to translate … !!! )

it´s like it is now …

It´s no problem for me because I think, noone found the problems I´m talking about since last years, and the most “PowerGuru8.000threads-user” will also not understand or reproduce what I´m talking about if I explained it in finest english. And maybe I don´t wanna spent anymore time to translate it to english because the german programmers has to translate back to german. (ggg It´s a confusion and a real life joke. From day to day some happiness and big laugher here in studio and companies and not only here !!!)

And so, you may think about me now like / what you want, and other users too. If the result maybe that some “really old” bugs (and I found enough :-)) will be fixed now, then it´s ok !!!

Now I´ll look for your fine threads to learn how to explain problems and bugs. I´m now over 22 years in that musicsoftware business and yes I really know, that learning never ends. So thanks that you completed this thread with wise words, thanks for your reply and your questions.

Thats “NEARLY” (!) the point! But I not mean “after stopping and restarting at new position” withing a pattern, I mean while scrolling and left the mouse at new position while playing.
Because after stopping and restarting ReNoise sends the position-point-information - BUT only in that moment!!! - And if you scroll in pattern to a new position then after that scrolls in pattern to a new pattern and restart, then there will happens some position-pointcrux too. (Example thread: Sometimes seems like loosing lines)

But exact like that I descriped it FIRST IN A SHORT MESSAGE (4 Text-Lines bug report) english & german – and sorry, after that my messages will be longer because I´m very frustraded and do not anymore know how to describe better.
And I named as example like you´d done now “like autoseek”, said too: resulting in “has to send new position to Plugs after restart while scrolling” (;ouse up after scrolling).

  1. Really that is a bug, because it´s resulting in some more / other plug syncproblems with ReNoise.
  2. And really sometimes ReNoise “lost a line” (another thread), so this problem may be very important at this point too…
  • the problem in your video: Seems you´re working with a NI Reactor-plug that does not receive position-information at all
    – will do it only if you say it explicit while programming (I mean I remember so as I´d to programm some complex plugs for Reactor). So in this example it can´t work and you´re not really showing a bug from ReNoise, in this example it can / maybe a problem of the plug if (seems like that, and I remember like that) it does not receive any position-information at all.

But as example the video works if fantasie from ReNoisers are enough, that you not stops and starts but scrolles and left mouse or in the case that ReNoise looses a line aso.

Thanks for your video at all, the principe is right … :slight_smile:

@JdS: if this really is the same thing as autoseek, but for VSTs, would that not make this a feature request instead of a bug? a bug is behaviour which was not intended, and not expected. this seems to me like something which is simply not implemented, like autoseek was. i agree it can be annoying, but that does not make it a bug.

@Jenoki: good job wading through the often confusing text (probably because JdS is not a native English speaker), figuring out what is meant, and explaining it (including a video even!)

Please take a look at the 4th picture at below strip:

I don’t see Ableton Live and Reaper on your list, why? :drummer:

Maybe, I´m thinking about but: (ok i´ve not to say because it´s programmers job, I know!!) if ReNoise can

“play after scrolling without to stop before at a new position”

and all other musician material will follow right after releasing the mouse, then it´s more then a missing feature that sequenced plugs cannot follow and scrolling while playing so will not work under all circumstances. In this case: “not work with plugs that have to get position-informatios too”.

And (ok taktik will hate me now a little bit more, and I´m sorry for that:) it will be simple fixed if ReNoise sends new position not only while stop and restarting, it will simply be fixed if ReNoise (like STANDARD in ALL other Sequencers on the market) sends new position after “realeasing Mouse while / after scrolling / go to new position in timeline of a host-sequencer while playing” too. And sorry, sorry, sorry (ok shame on me !!!) it´s a really, really realizable fix that normally maybe get only some minutes of time to do.

But again: It´s important because it will fix some other syncproblems in ReNoise too!! I´m really, really shure!!! — Sorry ReNoisers, hate me or something like that, but you´ll see your own that after changing / fixing you´ll find some other problems because that not anymore in the forum!

@JdS: i don’t think anyone flat-out told you ‘this will not be fixed’. the fact of the matter is, that whatever you WANT to see in Renoise, you are just at the mercy of the devs to see if it will also be implemented. just be patient, you have made your request, and the more you shout about it and throw tantrums, the smaller the chance this is going to be implemented. calm down, and work around the problem. it’s not like this makes it so you are completely unable to make music in Renoise.

HaHaHa, funny. You want to be a nice funny and really merry entertainer?! Are you??!!

Are you jealous? You must not, because if you´ve as so much, you´ve to learn someties as so much …

just a note first: You can find ableton live in the list, but I don´t work with it often because it´s not what I want to work with. – UUppps in my list I forgot really Reaper and Cakewalk project 5.2 and some more (but see last points in my list: “some more programs …”. But because I use them since some years only for support and articles and they are not favoured before ReNoise I think it´s ok.
Do you wanna see my registration-numbers or invoices?? And I forgot to say, that I´ve from some programms more then one Original-Licences. And if you need I´ll do a list of plugs I´ve. Will this help you out??!!

Was not the point that and what I´ve (because my job and over 25 Years in that business I have to have!!) it´s the point of prio what I´ve and like to work with and in other “jobs” how I´ve to compare features and (reason of) locate / find reasons for bugs between different musician software.

The point was that ReNoisers tells me they have to fix something for ME or for ONE plug !!! And really, really thats more than a wrong idea !!! There are so many other programms

  • but fastest workflow and best idea since a long time to have a nice workflow, to complete a musician-idea in a short time is ReNoise. Thats why I like it for to have fun!!! I would tell that ReNoise is not a must have for ME but a “some days in future WANT have” because it´s great. Nobody has to fix something for me, it has to be fixed for users that use this nice kind of musician software ONLY (and they was right, that they bought it … but …). OK! ReNoisers are not alone and I don´t like if they argued a little bit like that.

Ok, now you may searching for next detail to speculate about?? It´s nice, I´m amused about what some persons are searching for and speculate.
Wow, you can post a comic. I´m really impressed. Like my little son can do too :slight_smile: What about some expertise from you to threadtheme??

Sorry but I know what I´m talking about and (hope it will not frustrate you) I know nearly ALL aboout ALL programs you found in the list AND some of them I dev. a long time. Oh, I forgot to complete the list with all C64, Atari and Amiga-programms incl. the Computers. Sorry for that !!!

Next entertainer / member please :slight_smile: So the thread will blown more and more away … and that maybe work … no fixes but jokes :slight_smile:

Back to topic:

Thanks for the excellent example Jenoki. This indeed may be what JDS is talking about.
The plugin behaves like this in any host, at least in Reaper and Live which I’ve quickly tested this with. Seems it only syncs itself when starting to play and then assumes its started on full bars/beats only.

Such an “autoseek” would only be possible to be done in Renoise when rendering the plugin to audio. Freezing it. Then playing back the audio form previous takes.

And guys, PLEASE: Could we skip all this crap and concentrate on the issues instead please?

– ok, deleted some text of this post because answere and wish of taktik. I respect it !!!



First: hoping to not missunderstood your comment

You are right in that case that only a plug that do not receive song-positions (like that plug-in in that example) does normaly same in each sequencer! (out of sync). Only plugs that have only theyre own timeline without receiving exact possition-informations. And yes right (I can show and explain why) they then start only at (example-word:)“full” positions. Other plugs at beginnig while retrigger with new key Like AAS strum, VA 1, some Arturia plugs and more. Some examples more for you!!!

BPM and other sequencers that !!! receives position-informations !!! works in all host AND REAPER AND LIVE perfect (does what I´m talking about and they have to do … and this since many, many years), fine too. Sorry, checked it out again and again and before I posted this problem.
Do you really know about what you are talking in this case?? There is this big difference between that plugs and some difference because they WANT to be synced (diff. timelineconcept). You cannot compare this plugs with plugs like BPM and other plugs that receive !! position-information !! (name it like you want SPP / PP / PI or whatever) because they can record complex sequences and song themselve where it is important to need positioninformations from host !!!

And while restarting “mostly” (yes not at all and I don´t know why - maybe a simple problem or not) this plugs works in ReNoise too!!! Do you know about what ReNoise does in that case?
Again: ReNoise actually send new position ONLY while start, stop or definitly restarting after position-change.
Not after stop fast scrolling (to a new position) / release mousebutton / scrollwheel after srcolling while playing btw. stop scrolling by scrollbar (right side of window)… ok, rest you know - all what happens about this … No repeating again …

Fact: YES, you implemented what needed !!! and if that will be sent too when mouse will be left (mouse up or scrolling stopps - renoise plays again next event at new position) after / while scrolling again all is fixed (and some more problems that are resulting about that like a pattern-out-of sync thing).

So FACT: the video is really only “NEARLY” what I mean.

OK, we will make a video for only you if I find the time!! Will post it then on YouTube. With a link to all of your comments???
Belive me ONLY RENOISE has that problem with plugs I´m talking about. Why do you write again and again something thats definitly seems not right???

It will be a laugher in scene. Why?

Hey - no, I am not jealous. I am owner of two legally DAWs (Renoise and energyXT) and going buy another one today (Reaper) - and it is really enough I think for my hobby - music - not profession.

However I wanted to wrote that I think that you really miss in your set of applications Ableton which shows another approach to music… - but looks like I missed it :)

I wish you resolve your problems (it always happen for me with Renoise and its devs) and sorry for you that you took the joke so personal. Peace.

you´re right I saw it a wrong way :slight_smile: Peace too :-), sorry

Here an example of what happens. Sorry for the quality and the big file. My son (14J) has done this example for me, first time on MAC. And he works with renoise only since mid april. (with his own license - birthdaypresent from me :-))

It shows how exact BPM find the new position withing a song if it will send from host

AND THIS IS A / THE BIG DIFFERENT between the other example and this one (downloadlink).
it´s another thing because BPM and some other plugs I talking about receives exact songposition-informations and you see it does. The other plug in the other videoexample on this side does not receive exact songposition-informations. This is by design of that plug. That has nothing to do with what I mean and as example it has only NEARLY worth.)

After downloading please look to MeasureScreen of BPM. And you see and hear, that BPM btw. a plug that receives exact songposition-informations will find the exact eventposition too if it will be send by host (in this case host ReNoise).

If you take some time and looking exact, so you can analyse / understand what happens and what ReNoise sends if you stop / start. And you´ll see that while scrolling and stop scrolling in Trackview nothing will be send from ReNoise (but it has to do) but ReNoise does send this informations if you scroll in Patternscreen (left)

Sorry, but my son could not reproduce in that short time the other problems when lines are lost and what sometimes happens if you scrolled first in Track view and then in Patternview. The problem that then ReNoise sends after restart a wrong-lineposition of actuall real position. But this will be 100% fixed if renoise send some times a new songposition after stop scrolling.

If I find the time I´ll make a next example. AND if you want I make examples too with many other sequencers where no problems about that (scrolling / change timelineposition while playing aso.

Sorry again for my english, for the bad quality of video and souond. But it´s great, my son found this problem too and he understand it :slight_smile: (ok, he nows many things too about other musicsoftware and is same speech as I …)

EDIT: uups, I saw this video now first time myselfe. it`s a really high resolution and to much scrolling for to some eyes (wow … uuhhh), but I think as example it will help.


Just for my own information: Why would one desire to scroll through the timeline like that in a step sequencer?
I mean with horizontal sequencers it is frankly the quickest way to get somewhere, but in Renoise using the ctrl+up/down and pgup / pgdown keys are much faster for that.
And if i don’t want the rythm disturbed, i simply turn pattern follow off.