Sequencers - Will They Make Me Rich?

Dear Renoisers,

I’m thinking about signing up for an intense 8 month training program at an audio school…

at this school they will teach the basics: music theory, beat making, piano skills, and song writing… Using protools, logic, reason, and ableton live.
and later other courses regarding the music business, certification$, etc…

well its around $17,000 just for the 8 month core training…
and around $3,000 for books and materials (including protools, logic, reason and ableton) which we are required to own.

Well for the last 3 months I have been taking a basic audio class at another school… Using logic. Before this, I had been messing around on renoise for almost a year. Well after composing on logic, I had come to the realization that the kind of music that I compose …Which at the moment I shall call psychedelic glitch trance, cannot really be accurately produced on a sequencer such as logic… it involves lots of effect commands, pitchbending, tempo shifting, and speed glitching…And isn’t just random shit i throw together, it actually makes sense and tells a story (at least to me).

furthermore (and perhaps already evident to trackers so i wont get too much into it) I have found logic to be totally illogical and unintuitive, compared to renoise.

So why is it that logic is an industry standard and most people have never heard of renoise here in the U.S. ? no need to answer that rhetorical question.

Anyway, my dilemma is that $20,000 is a nice chunk of dough…
So these questions are for you pro audio geeks out there who have experience with all these DAWs and probably have careers…

I know everyone is different and some people actually use several DAWs at the same time… but honestly:
If I love renoise and hate logic, will I hate protools, ableton, and reason?
Or am I just being ignorant, and all these other DAWs actually serve a purpose ?
I don’t really “hate” logic… because I already have it ;) but I just don’t want to spend money on protools, reason, and ableton, when I already have a feeling I personally won’t be using them that much to compose with… except maybe ableton for live gigs If I ever get there.

Will this 8 month crash course really secure me a job as an audio engineer or professional sound designer who composes music for web, tv, film, and games?

Am I asking the wrong questions at the wrong place?

or should should I just spend the money on omnisphere and the new CDJ’s, and just stay in my studio composing the wickedest music eva ?

If you have made it this far, I thank you for reading. It’s really bugging me and I needed to just write it up anyway, even if only the crickets will answer me.
Plus I only have 3 days to make my mind up or else I will be just staying home for the next 5 months until the next school session starts.

I think you need to relax and look at some kittens

Well, I don´t think it´s irrelevant to ask that question here, and you posted it in off-topic anyway… I experienced a similar dilemma some years ago. I was asking myself if a “professional” DAW like logic could fit for me. I had been using trackers for many years, but mostly on Amiga and in the early PC-years. I was lucky enough to find a Logic-course that was only three days, so I got an impression of what you could do. The reason I wanted to try Logic, was because I had heard the soundquality was really good. I´ve been using Logic express 7 for a while now, and the sound IS really good. Better than Renoise, Ableton Live, Cubase and Reason, but that´s my opinion. I now others think otherwise. Logic suits me in many ways, especially since I play keyboard and like to improvise. Not that you can´t do that in Renoise…

I think the best thing to do, is to find out what you want to do for a living. If you want to live of the music you make on your own, I would suggest you continue using Renoise, if you feel it suits you. If you want to work as a producer, maybe Logic or another DAW is better.

Anyway, I don´t think it´s a waste of time or money to learn other DAWs, because you will learn other techniques for doing stuff, and maybe get new ideas, ideas you could even use in Renoise.

There must be tons of people making music like you do that uses DAWs like Logic or Cubase. But a lot of them uses hardware synths, I know, at least they did in the nineties. I made some trance-tunes long ago using FT2, and a tracker is really good for that genre, I agree. :)

Good luck!

Hey. Not many of us here from the Bay Area. Where abouts? I’m East bay.
About the schooling… (btw - my opinion isn’t worth much, but you asked for opinions).
If you’re seriously willing to spend $20,000 then IMO you should just spend the money on gear. It can be really exciting getting swept away with the idea that you’re doing something to further your non-existent career, but in the end you’ll be doing the same thing, sitting in your bedroom late at night making music that nobody is ever gonna hear unless you go out into the real world and make connections. They are gonna “teach” you stuff that you can learn on your own.
That being said, and yes I am a pretty negative/neilistic dood, the only way my lazy ass has ever gotten music actually published was thru a guy I used to be friends with who got some really useful connections thru his school. (UCLA)
If I got off my ass and somehow miraculously cared more about getting my music heard, I can’t say that going to school would help that at all. Having $20,000 worth of vintage analog synths on the other hand…
But then again thats just me, and thats why I dropped out of college.
If you’re motivated and outgoing, San Francisco needs all the good electronic music it can get, so make some music and book some shows…?

So anyways, I’m pretty worthless, but I’ve had this same idea before and you just heard my conclusion.

Hit me back… i don’t know ANYBODY in my area that uses Renoise. Nobody gets it.

Everything I know about live sound engineering and music production I have learnt myself. Every music producer, sound engineer or DJ I have ever met has done the same and that’s a lot of people.

The best thing you can do is get involved in your local scene, meet people in the industry and make a name for yourself.

$20,000 for 8 months is a waste of money in my opinion unless it guarantees you a job. If I had that kind of money i’d use it to pay the tuition fees for my degree. I’m doing a 4 year BSc and thats costing £14,000 ($20,783)in total, and a degree in any subject looks a lot nicer on a CV than a vocational music course, no matter how good it was. Every waking moment i’m not studying biology i’m producing, playing DJ sets, getting on the radio, sound engineering at gigs and I also got a music scholarship from my university which means I actually get paid to do all that stuff!

After my degree I highly doubt i’ll do anything related to biology ever again! I might do some other stuff like a masters or maybe even a PhD in electronic music or acoustics/soundsystem stuff before trying to get a job or starting a company in events/live sound engineering. Eventually i’d like to set up my own studio and charge people lots of money to produce their tracks.

As for other sequencers, in my experience their purpose is for manipulating big chunks of recorded audio, like bands and more ‘conventional’ music, and not so good for building up progressive, original electronic music from scratch (which is what Renoise is so good for!)

That’s my ideas anyway, but maybe because i’ve come a long way very quickly by meeting the right people and demonstrating my skills.

$20,000 - eight months??? dont do it man - jesus - just spend 8 months learning logic yrself - go on google or youtube or something for beginers tutorials if you get really stuck - damn, get a subscription to computer music and read up on the net…

^that would be a better idea - and try the demo’s of ableton and that if you wanna know if you like them or not…

seriously - i think you will regret spending that amount of cash on something that cant really be taught…

The following link has absolutely nothing to do to with your question, but make what you will of it…

Conan O’Brien’s Speech to the Havard Class of 2000.(Pt 2 of 2)


Im from Pacifica where in the east bay are you?
I really do appreciate yours and everyones’ opinions.

20k on gear makes more sense now.
I mean from the beginning it’s the only thing that makes sense.
But being that I live with my mom in a quiet neighborhood,
I guess the idea of going to a school in the city and being around actually people instead of sitting at home by myself tweaking knobs all day still seems like a good idea. I’m pretty introverted and so I’m not confident about my networking skills, its like the hardest thing for me, so the social experience that a school provides is kinda a plus in my situation. Also, the challenge of being forced to learn techniques I would normally steer cleer of…
And the discipline of staying awake and sober while sitting in a classroom for 20 hours a week.

but the math just doesn’t add up, as you and others have said.
the shiny new gear prospect is looking prettier at the moment…

Spending 20 grants won’t get you into a job as audio engineer or producer, for that money they only teach you how to use the tools as efficient as they can be used.

Skills is what need to get into those worlds, connections is another thing.
Use your skills to produce, use the techniques you have learned to get to the end result faster and then attend late Christmas company gatherings in those circles to make contacts or just call around companies you want to get involved to, to make an appointment to have a look around.
Showing interest in the job without asking for vacancies, shows much more appeal than begging for a job.
It also brings in a lot more connections that way.

Personally, I hate ProTools. WAY over rated. Next in line I would say Reason, especially since you can’t add vsts without rewiring through another host. FLStudio on the other hand, I think is a good DAW. But people will disagree.

What’s most important is what works for you, screw what everyone else is using. Cause it all comes down to you in the end.

I have plenty of people I know that look at renoise and scratch their head in confusion telling me that I should use something simpler. For me it is simple. I look past the string of numbers and letters scrolling down the screen.

As far as programs go, BitTorrent them off the web and test them out. If you like it, buy it. If you don’t delete it. They do all run a little differently.

Good luck with your decision. I’m sure you’ll do the right thing. :)

Welcome to Finland!

-Free education (all degrees)
-about 800$ financial aid to students
-free medical care for studens
-not to mention many other educational social benefits (inc. 50% off from train/bus/local transportation + food)


Anyway, I would advice you to focus primarily on contacts. Without them you won’t get any projects even if you have all the education (and gear).

yeah! let’s gather and nuke the ******** Sweden!!

Goddamn vikings!

Bay Area? Try:

Probably not the most relevant curriculum though…

For Renoise we already have a freeskool project: right here

I’ve done it. I’m in my second year of schooling and i’ve blown about 40,000 on my education for 2 years. I can tell you now if you are the type of dude that is into renoise you will not satisfy your interests going to any of these schools. you will be the black sheep, the odd man out, going to class with a bunch of guys that want to skip over all the synthesis courses and just get to micing rock drums. and the school and teachers will cater to those other guys, because they want to keep 99% of the business happy. you learn from people that are into the kind of stuff you are into, and the best way to do that is over the net, using resources like the renoise board or whatever. if i had to do it over again i would go a different route, because honestly while getting towards the end of it all, i’m not THAT much further ahead than when i started. 95% of all the cool shit i’ve learned over the last couple years i’ve learned on my own in my own reading and fooling around completely unrelated to school.

it depends on what you want to do. if you want to get rich, you probably won’t do it by making music with renoise. if you want to track out bands in a studio or whatever, tools like logic or cubase are optimal. pro tools is shit, don’t listen to what people say about it, they don’t know (i’ve used it and can tell you if you’ve learned cubase or logic you will just laugh at how stupid pro tools is). ableton live is a really cool tool that you should check out regardless of whether or not you go to school, it’s a great thing for doing things differently than in renoise. reason as a sequencer is bullshit as well, but i like sending midi to it or rewiring it to another sequencer and just basically using it as a collection of instruments, synths, and effects. try the tools, try demos, figure out what YOU do, and learn it yourself. you don’t need to be one of those zombies who goes to school and takes what’s fed to you by teachers at a school, because that will just turn you into another mediocre music producer that will only ever make you just enough to get by (i’ve already seen it in my friends). if you really want to stand out and become something, you are going to have to put in the time and work at making yourself better, and that has absolutely nothing to do with paying 20,000 to go to school for 8 months. i guess then the only question you have to ask yourself is if you want to waste your money and go to school for 8 months and get pissed off and frustrated because you are learning a bunch of stuff that doesn’t interest you or would you prefer to just take things one at a time, really learn concepts for yourself, and really learn exactly what YOU want.

and also, know that people love to run their mouths. the length of this reply is a testament to that. people who know shit about shit like to share their knowledge with somebody. you can pay 20,000 for one guy to teach you something, or you can just ask another guy for free and he will most likely tell you everything guy A would. the only thing that i can say school is good for is that it forces you to work, but if you have the dedication and drive to make stuff happen in your life then there is nothing stopping you from learning, for free, everything any school has to offer.


I have decided not to go to the school.
thanks everyone, for talking me out of my own suicide.

I will get omnispere, the new cdj’s, and a badass mixer instead.

renoise 4eva !!!


Good call dood. Maybe look into some decent a/d/a converters (apogee?) if you plan on recording allot…
Learn how to use a patchbay…
You can get tons of pretty cheap 90’s era effects and midi stuff off ebay…
Focus, read manuals, make it your number 1 priority and soon you wont have many friends…

BTW I live out in Concord. Work out in Oakland but don’t really want to live out there eh.
Pacifica is dope.

Congrats on your decision. :)

I don’t really know you, but if I were you I’d stay out of a school like that myself. They don’t give any guarantees on landing a job, just push you in the right direction with the tools they teach. But whatev. You’ve found your tool, and there are free tutorials that gives you an idea wether or not you would like to work with said software anyway.

Personally I wouldn’t spend much money on gear either, they don’t carve out the talent, focus does. ;)

Networking is hugely important if you want to land a good job, I’m telling you from personal experience. Another thing I’ve personally experienced is getting with the “wrong” crowd with my creative works, totally ending up in the wrong direction, finally losing myself creatively. I haven’t made music in nearly 2 years now because I burned myself out doing what others expected me to in stead of what I really wanted to do, believing those contacts were beneficial for future references or something. In the long run I’m glad I did what I did, because I’m slowly getting back on track with my focus and can use the connections I made for something positive in the future. :)

But, since networking is so important to land the right jobs, you should probably work on your introversion as much as your music? You don’t necessarily have to go to that class to get out and about in the school system, aren’t there other cheaper classes that teach music theory? That can be pretty useful as well!