Vertical Piano Roll!

Look very nice! :D

View the screenshot:


I was thinking about this quite a long time, nice to see that someone actually visualizes this. There is also a screenshot somewhere where the piano is in the middle so you can see which notes are triggered. Would be cool if it hoovered transparant so you would see notes underneath it… ah well just thinking out load here ;)

edit: found the screenshot here

a pattern editor like in Aodix and nobody needs piano roll … B)

Maybe a bit offtopic but I was wondering if cubase / logic / sonar have the ability to display note information in the blocks you draw in the matrix editor?

Couldnt this just be a vsti or something, cuz this shouldnt be implemented in a tracker…

Looks to me like an entire new concept rather than a new Tracker-view.

The great thing about the Tracker is to edit mostly with a Keyboard, the piano-roll looks entire mouse-based. The Piano-Roll has definitly potential on its own!

One of the biggest problems i see here is the Note-Lenght which couldn’t be 100% viewn in the Tracker view. If a Note-lenght in the Piano-Roll is 1/64 but your tracker speed is Speed 6 you simply miss the note-off event somewhere between position 1 and 2 because the resolution of the Pattern is not high enough. Hope youundestand what i mean.

In generel i think it has low priority, but i would expect a Piano Roll in version 4.0 :)

I can understand why some ppl never touch a pianoroll if they dont have to.
I think the ‘fear’ amongst many trackers comes from the fact that if you dont play anything live (from midi keyboard), you have to draw each singel note.
Now thats a lot of mousing… and slooow.
However. When the notes are there, either if you record live, or if you track notes in the pattern editor, then it can be much better and faster to get an overview of the notes, and move singel/selection of notes on the fly, using a pianoroll.
If you actually know all the functions and hotkeys that a good pianoroll have, then you can work very fast mousing and hotkeying at the same time.
I’m quite sure even die hard-trackers and pianoroll-haters can find very good use of a pianoroll in organizing/moving/quantizing/resizing notes.
Belive it or not there is a reason why almost all seqeuncers have a pianoroll.
There are many things you can do faster in a pianoroll then a pattern editor, and vice versa. So why shouldnt we have both?

Aodix has a very interesting concept going on. As you can move notes freely (no quantize) in the patterneditor, and also expand it to a vertical pianoroll.
Definitively something for ReNoise to look more into.

just my 0.02$

naw keep that somewhere else man ;)
might as well call it “Rematrixedit or Refruity”.
if you do add a piano roll please put a check box that lets me turn the DAMM THING OFF!!!
if you add this than you better add a “arranger based sequencer” like buzz :drummer:

lol :D even better make two final release versions, one with a pianoroll and the other is the real Renoise.

what’s that thing about buzz you said?

I think Renoise could definitely do with a pattern sequencer like Buzz has - it can’t be that difficult, can it? All it requires is to give each track within each pattern a number, and a separate pattern sequencer tracker (it’s simply a macro view of the entire sequence of patterns really) into which you put the numbers representing each track you want, from each pattern. I found this so easy to use in Buzz, all the copying and pasting in Renoise is a hundred times more time consuming.
It’s so much easier to fit songs together the Buzz way - if I like drum track 01 to go with melody 01, I simply press ‘1’ in the pattern sequencer, if I want to hear drum track 01,02,01,02,03,03, etc. it takes a few seconds to do this in Buzz - how do you guys manage in Renoise? (I know you have keyboard shortcuts, but it still is ten times slower than in Buzz, unless I’m missing something.)

If there is to be a piano roll in Renoise, please look at Music Studio Independence’s version, as it’s the best I’ve come across. (Very similar to the one the OP posted up above).

Expect Renoise to be extended to become a VSTI and you have to figure out which piano-roll sequencer you want to use Renoise in.

Besides the programming difficulties there are also some principle matters why a Pianoroll doesn’t belong in a tracker in the first place:

-A tracker is a sequencer using it’s own style and resolution, a pianoroll doesn’t fit into that concept at any point.
-I suspect a pianoroll in a tracker will not allow all features in this tracker to be used to it’s extend, you would always have to switch back to tracker-view to get certain things done and these situations will again bring up another rain of suggestions and moanings on the boards.

An idea like implemented in Aodix would probably be the best compromise of both worlds.

No need to say that I could not disagree more.

From a musician point of view: I can understand that you dont need a pianoroll if you type everything note by note with your keyboard.
However if you do play anything live with a midi keyboard and still dont see advantages in a pianoroll, well then I dont think you are much of a player :)

From a technical point of view: A pianoroll shows the start of a note and the end of a note? right? The key and volume. What is the big difference that make this so hard to make. And why on earth do this scare ppl that much? You are just showing whats already there in a graphical and more musical way.

The way I see my self using pianorolls are only on certain parts of my song.
I would never start programming drums with the pianoroll.
However even when programming drums you can do usefull things with a pianoroll. Its much more easier to select certain notes with a pianoroll. You can make a selection of notes and change the length of them, or move them slightly. You also get a much better overview of your track as you can zoom more out then you can do with the pattern editor.

For live solo instruments played with your midikeyboard it is much much faster and easier to select the parts/notes you want to adjust/quantize etc.
If you dont agree on my last point, then think of this:
Try playing a modern pc game only using your mouse or only using your keyboard. You will probably never be good at this game. You can do things much faster and more advanced using both the mouse and keyboard. Anyone hating pianorolls that much could not possible have learned all the advanced functions and hotkeys that modern pianorolls do have. You CAN do certain things much faster and intuitive then in a pattern editor.

Using renoise as vsti in another host would not make everything ok ,I think.
For many ppl that only wants a more advanced ‘sampler’ in cubase, this is of course perfect. For me however I want to do everything in renoise :)
Workflow is everything.

just MHO B)


When i started suggesting about raising the tick-amount to 100 and set one tick to be one msecond and move the whole pattern-editor concept to a certain “zoom” mode and then just simply display notes as blocks with it’s parameters popped up as tooltip info, there was obvious no better way to scare Taktik as he replied by rather adding a delay-column to each subtrack and raising the maximum tick amount to 255 instead of considering my vision.

I personally don’t really mind how things are done.
To me a tracker is a tracker and it serves a certain public.
There is an extra part of this public that doesn’t know different and there is a part that does have experience with various piano-roll designs.

But to me implementing a pianoroll into a tracker is a similar idea of bleaching a negro to a white man.
It’s a personality concept of the tracker. And by adding suggestions for adding things a tracker is not, seems a bit of saying that “a tracker isn’t capable of doing…” or “You can’t easily do … with a tracker”

There are all sorts of solutions that can be applied or implemented within the scope of what the personality of the application is and it does not require a piano-roll to be able to achieve the same things you can do with a piano-roll.

It doesn’t belong into the interface of a tracker and it doesn’t suite it’s personality, no matter how versatile a piano-roll may be.

Piano-roll functionality:yes, piano-roll looks:no

You can use various functional aspects of what a piano-roll has and you can translate these into functionality that would suit a tracker:

When discussing the idea of doing live actions
I’m doing lots of things live on the masterkeyboard using the delay recording feature so the only real nuisance situation i stumble upon is that there is no way to change the delay-factors by using a key-mouse-click and drag action combo.

I made a suggestion to the devteam to apply some shift tricks with notes in a selected area to get a more higher resolution in moving notes.
A key and mouse-move combo would take care a note being shifted downwards trigger a delay value being raised up or down depending upon the value or a note being cut earlier upon how much higher the mouse is being dragged.

It is another way of accomplish similar results still using the old tracker interface.
Note highlighting can probably also be done by individual highlighting notes assigned to certain instruments (an extra instrument property where you can change the foreground and background colour of the note that is being played by that instrument).

The better overview could be improved my scaling the pattern-editor to show for instance only the note columns and use more scaled fontsets.

So we agree then.

I did not say with a single word HOW it was ment to be implanted.

The ‘Aodix’ way of doing it (blocks with parameters on top):
This is good for instant access to move/resize your notes. I’m all for this.
Still this is not giving you a musical overview of the note pitch.
You have to read the note parameter to see what note it is.
In this case a pianoroll (if its horizontal/vertical, directly in the pattern or not, I really dont care…) is better for simply adjust your fresh recorded notes.

And as said before, you can much easier select notes according to their pitch with a pianoroll. The notes are separated according to their pitch. This is not how its done with parameter-blocks in the pattern editor.

I dont see why this is such a big deal if it was implanted in a tracker.
Its like demanding developers to remove the sampler in renoise, because you only use vsti now.

I know I speak for a large group of ppl that dont even touch trackers anymore becouse of the lack of for instance a pianoroll.
Well… you can say f#¤% them. Or you can stop and think why they find a pianoroll to be essential for their work. How can I benefit from a pianoroll?

Its a simple addition. You dont have to rewrite the whole program to implant it.

And most important. Dont use it if you dont like it!

Piano Roll in Renoise is a good feature!!! the most important program use it! and… (Like Pysj) this is most important: Dont use it if you dont like it!
I use it

“The most important program” is pretty much based upon personal desires.

The nice thing about keeping this sort of brainstorming going is that eventually good and usable features come out of it.

and a lot of personal identical desires makes a feature important in general B)

the bad thing about user brainstorming for Renoise is that we know nothing about the current situation / road map and so on.
feature suggestions are repeating from month to month, we forget old discussions and suggestions that were important.

if the dev-team is still interested in dev-support from the users there must be a road the user can follow with ideas … but the devs are more or less silent since month. :unsure:

The devs are not silent at all, at least not in the background.

The most hot discussed ideas are floating around.

I just name one without discussing details: A new RNI structure.

there are a thousand an one programs out there with a piano roll. use one of those instead of cluttering renoise. i switched to this program because i prefer computer keyboard to mouse+midi. if you like mouse+midi better, then use cubase or fruity or logic or any other run of the mill sequencer.

(actually the above sounds a little harsh, i’m sure you could integrate a piano roll as a sort of “skin” for the tracker interface, it’s just something that should not have a high priority, and should not have any of the internal workings changed to suit it.) :guitar: