Simply a matter of priority: spending time to talk about things or doing things 
I’ve read the discussion about Renoise not being as accessible as other DAWs and therefore not so popular/advertised. I had my own sufferings with it so let me just say a couple of words from the perspective of a relative new-comer.
I’m coming from a trip of moving between DAWs like mad last year… ableton, renoise, reaper, cubase and hardware samplers (boss, akai). To make sample-based music of the organic variety (hip-hop beats etc). I made about 30 tracks in that time and stepped away from renoise so many times and went to ableton because of the interface, ease of use especially when being able to see a less abstract overview over the whole track.
I always HOPED that my daw of choice would be something else, but the tracks made in Renoise just excelled sonically and musically. It must be something about workflow, not seeing the music or i don’t know what. Listening to the patterns on repeat and everything you want to try out has to be done so explicitly. It’s not randomly shoving samples around, everything is a conscious decision. I wish I could go back to ableton’s warp-markers, shoving samples around etc., but the results speak a different language. At least for me, Renoise seems to be the hard way, but the right way of doing things.
PS 3.0 update is killer.
is Renoise still popular or still underground.?
WHen I went to this meetup for electronic music in Los Angeles, when it was my turn to discuss which DAW I was using, I told them I was high on RENOISE 3.0 and that it’s this TRACKER DAW that create and mix my music in. And that if you are into electronic music, experimental , industrial, etc. to definitely check it out .
Everyone in that table was either PRo Tools or Ableton Live 9.
not just electronic, i do all sorts of stuff with it and happy!!
Because.
What Renoise needs in terms of advertisment is good musicians and composers who use Renoise to make good music, get popular, and people will be begging to know what software they use to make their sounds. People like Venetian Snares using Renoise brought a lot of people who have never heard of trackers to the software itself, but there aren’t very many popular people out there doing stuff with it. It’s the reason why when Skrillex said he used Massive to do stuff, people ate that software up.
If you really want to advertise for Renoise, get good and get popular and it should take care of itself. No video or demonstration can compensate for the lack of quality music coming out of the DAW.
I am sure someone will scream at me for waking an old topic, but I found this thread while looking for something entirely different and just want to chip in, that Machinae Supremacy uses Renoise, for one.
Simply a matter of priority: spending time to talk about things or doing things
This made me chuckle, the human races inability to achieve anything if they talk online, in that case we are all f**ked lol
This made me chuckle, the human races inability to achieve anything if they talk online, in that case we are all f**ked lol
The last time “doing things instead of talking about things” went quite wrong. There’s a very good chance, that this way of handling stuff back then is exactly the reason, why things take a bit longer now. People just tend to forget too easy.
Well, just to take the topic literally: Renoise has never been advertised.
And if you ask me, advertising is like a dinosaur, old fashioned and ineffective.
Not that it’s not working, it’s just that it comes with so many bad side effects.
For example, even if Renoise had wild dreams of growing to become a company the size of Native Instruments, the reality is that it isn’t. So, by inviting people from all over the place to spend time with your product, you will also need to substantially increase support to accommodate for all these newcomers.
Instead, Renoise has pretty much been using traditional marketing and word-of-mouth to sell it. If you reach people who are actually motivated to learn it, read the manuals and so on, life is going to be a hell of a lot easier for a small outfit like Renoise.
And the last year has actually seen a substantial increase in marketing related activities. Review in CM, interviews and generally, achenar pushing stuff (but not spamming) on the social interwebs. Aphex Twin namedropping us? Cool.
Now we just need to get our act together when it comes to explaining not only what Renoise is, but also where it’s moving (which is the topic over here).
^Not only where it it’s moving, but also_when._
lol
Why does anybody think it needs advertising ?
They have a small market that gets smaller by the day, or do people here really think that Renoise in its current form will ever compete with an end to end linear DAW
This is a specialist market and when anybody asks anywhere “Whats the best tracker” then the word Renoise is it, it is nothing more, it is never going to compete with Cubase or Logic or Reaper or any other linear DAW
If you want Renoise to have more users it needs to have a linear sequencer and piano roll, something most of the tracker geeks will scream NOOOOOO at very loud, so basically the developers of Renoise are now f**ked, they have to diversify if they want to do this as a business (No i am not guessing, tracking is not only a limited market but also a limited mindset, some people wont use trackers that you have to pay for and so on, it is such a limited market)
Put a linear sequencer and piano roll in Renoise and overnight you get a huge buzz and new users, until that happens it will be a few new users here and there, slow releases (No way the devs can afford to do otherwise) and a slowly diminishing user experience (Lets be honest, the forum is nearly dead, and the IRC they are discussing eating berries and hard waters mystical powers haha)
You can all bitch and moan at my post now, but it is all true and you know it 
OK, I’m not supposed to feed the trolls, and this is kind of how this feels, but I’ll answer honestly anyway because I think that, despite the final statement that it’s all true and you know it I see significant deviations from demonstrable facts.
Why does anybody think it needs advertising ?
Nothing needs advertising. But it can be appropriate, especially when there is a lack of recognition of a generally beneficial solution.
They have a small market that gets smaller by the day, or do people here really think that Renoise in its current form will ever compete with an end to end linear DAW
A little history in my case: I came to Renoise after comparing it, on price and functional features, with a number of DAWs. This includes free ones and expensive ones. Tracker style and linear. Even hardware systems. So in my case, it did compete with linear DAWs - and won. I even paid for a licence, and I’m happy that I did so. So it can, and it does, and succeeds. The question of the size of the market is far from clear as well, because I am the very archetype of people who are supposed to cry and flinch at trackers; I started in classical music, learned to read music, didn’t even touch a tracker for most of my life, don’t have a degree in computer science, and yet when I saw the opportunity to get something I wanted, I made the leap. I had touched trackers before, but only with difficulty. So the market being small isn’t fate - it’s a matter of market education and exposure.
This is a specialist market and when anybody asks anywhere “Whats the best tracker” then the word Renoise is it, it is nothing more, it is never going to compete with Cubase or Logic or Reaper or any other linear DAW
Actually I had no idea that anyone considered Renoise to be the best tracker in the world, and that wouldn’t have been a selling point for me. I’m not even sure that’s true - it might be, I just don’t know. It’s certainly a very good tracker. However, I repeat that for me it competed with big name linear DAWS - and won.
If you want Renoise to have more users it needs to have a linear sequencer and piano roll, something most of the tracker geeks will scream NOOOOOO at very loud, so basically the developers of Renoise are now f**ked, they have to diversify if they want to do this as a business
I actually explained in another post the primary virtue of a piano roll, which has more to do with the kind of information visually exposed than anything else. It could be bolted on - it’s actually quite possible in HCI terms - but it’s not necessary for its function, or its accessibility. As for “tracker geeks” (your term; I’m not sure who these people are) screaming about it, I suspect that they’d want the tracker interface to stay, not forbid any alternative interfaces from being made available. Add alternatives, and they’d probably just ignore them if they didn’t like them and didn’t need them. I strongly doubt it’s ideological. (Well, maybe it is for you - I wouldn’t want to presume.)
(No i am not guessing, tracking is not only a limited market but also a limited mindset, some people wont use trackers that you have to pay for and so on, it is such a limited market)
Some people won’t use commercial software, period. That doesn’t prevent Oracle from making a killing. You’re painting it as an ideological and inherently walled target market, when in actual fact that is nowhere near what I’m seeing.
Put a linear sequencer and piano roll in Renoise and overnight you get a huge buzz and new users, until that happens it will be a few new users here and there, slow releases (No way the devs can afford to do otherwise) and a slowly diminishing user experience
This is sheer fantasy. First off, it’s not clear that a linear sequencer can be meaningfully added without a complete rewrite of the internals. So even if it would end world hunger, it mightn’t be a realistic prospect whatsoever. Suggesting what might happen if it were maybe executed is utterly irrelevant - and there’s every reason to believe that implementing these changes would do nothing to let Renoise be a better Cubase than Cubase. Why should Renoise play in Cubase’s playground? That would be market suicide. And why on earth would the user experience diminish? The software I have will run for as long as I can install a debian linux machine - so probably as long as I live, and a lot longer. It’s only been improving. (And yes, I tried some earlier versions too, and I think it has been an improvement overall, even discounting bug fixes.)
(Lets be honest, the forum is nearly dead, and the IRC they are discussing eating berries and hard waters mystical powers haha)
And on the forum I see living discussions, competitions and requests for assistance with useful answers, while on IRC I collaborate with people. Right now. Like, today. So feel free to prophecy doom for the community, but I’m not seeing it.
You can all bitch and moan at my post now, but it is all true and you know it
No, I’m sorry. You got a number of things wrong. See above for specifics. Try again on the 1st of April.
And there is the perfect fanboy response
When only fanboys are left, it does not bode well.
Nothing needs advertising. But it can be appropriate
True. I was simply pointing out that Renoise has never been advertised. And then I added that we (the people who work with Renoise, and getting paid for it) still agree that we don’t have the need to do so.
However, this will most likely change with the release of Redux. Unlike Renoise, Redux is “just a plugin” so it’s asking much less for someone to try it out (people are used to the idea of demoing a plugin to see if it offers something of value - asking to try out a different DAW is a bit much IMO).
So here, we might get ads in relevant magazines, banners on websites, a promotional video and all the bells and whistles that would normally accompany a product launch of this magnitude.
Agree with the other stuff you’re writing, btw.
Actually I might be willing to make the argument that as a tracker, Sunvox is a better tracker. What makes Renoise good and desirable is its blurring the lines between tracker and DAW, and this is why many users would like to see this line further blurred.
Bungle, on 03 Feb 2015 - 6:24 PM, said:
Why does anybody think it needs advertising ?
For a niche product like Renoise, I’m sure it would still help, but maybe advertising wouldn’t be cost-effective. Fair and obvious point.
They have a small market that gets smaller by the day, or do people here really think that Renoise in its current form will ever compete with an end to end linear DAW
Seems like conjecture on your part. Maybe their user base is the biggest it’s ever been. Maybe it’s smaller but more consistent than ever. Anything could happen… Renoise could suddenly get a massive surge and expand into forrays such as tracker-based space travel, but for nowI don’t expect it to significantly increase it’s share of the DAW market. Even with a piano roll. This could be seen as an argument for differentiating and focusing as much as possible on what sets Renoise apart + integration with other DAWs.
This is a specialist market and when anybody asks anywhere “Whats the best tracker” then the word Renoise is it, it is nothing more, it is never going to compete with Cubase or Logic or Reaper or any other linear DAW
I’m guessing very few people think, or have ever thought that Renoise would gain a significant share of the DAW market. Finding some anecdotal evidence for it, like taktik drunk-texting Karl Steinberg in 2002 to say that it would decimate Cubase, won’t help.
If you want Renoise to have more users it needs to have a linear sequencer and piano roll, something most of the tracker geeks will scream NOOOOOO at very loud, so basically the developers of Renoise are now f**ked, they have to diversify if they want to do this as a business (No i am not guessing, tracking is not only a limited market but also a limited mindset, some people wont use trackers that you have to pay for and so on, it is such a limited market)
Depends on how it’s implemented so it’s a lot of conjecture again. If you’re not guessing, what are the numbers? When exactly is Renoise projected to go out of business and by how much time does having a traditional clip arranger (assuming that’s what you mean) and piano roll mitigate that? I want numbers Hoss!! If Renoise wants to be a ‘complete’ DAW it has to conform, but you’re negating the fact that it could expand it’s user base in other, more interesting ways, such as through Redux.
Put a linear sequencer and piano roll in Renoise and overnight you get a huge buzz and new users, until that happens it will be a few new users here and there, slow releases (No way the devs can afford to do otherwise) and a slowly diminishing user experience (Lets be honest, the forum is nearly dead, and the IRC they are discussing eating berries and hard waters mystical powers haha)
I VERY much doubt that would happen. Especially with all the DAW options out there. Why would a person suddenly choose Renoise over a major DAW, or even something more comparable? Because it has tracker input? You just said tracking has very marginal appeal. So to increase that appeal, which do you think would be more effective? Trying to shift people from using the major DAWs, or actually integrating with those? All sequencers and piano rolls aren’t created equal. Why would the Renoise devs choose to play catch-up and compete with the insane editing capabilities of major DAWs, instead of focusing on what sets Renoise apart? Makes no sense to me. Especially considering how cheap some of these (even major) DAWs are now.
IF the initial work on Redux curbed work on Renoise to some extent, at some point it probably won’t have any noticeable impact on dev speed (no, not since it’s taking forever. ;)). To not just retain, but expand the user base, I think Redux is a much better approach than (just) a standalone app, exactly because Renoise is a niche product.If you find the right price point, you reach a group of people who have no qualms about spending that amount to see if it works for them in the context of what they’re already doing. I also think they should be more reductionist and just drop calling it Redux. 
You can all bitch and moan at my post now, but it is all true and you know it
Nothing to bitch and moan about because you’re clearly as or more delusional than the rest of us. Such agenda. =) Me too, I know.
However, this will most likely change with the release of Redux. Unlike Renoise, Redux is “just a plugin” so it’s asking much less for someone to try it out (people are used to the idea of demoing a plugin to see if it offers something of value - asking to try out a different DAW is a bit much IMO).
So here, we might get ads in relevant magazines, banners on websites, a promotional video and all the bells and whistles that would normally accompany a product launch of this magnitude.
May I make the modest proposal that in the context of advertising like this, you really should work on introductory tutorials and teaching materials, as well as maybe war stories from experienced users on how to do awesome things with it?
The reason I say this is that in other (unrelated) fields where there are complex products which are tough to approach, customer satisfaction rises massively when people understand how they can get more value out of their purchase. It will probably also improve word of mouth.
I know that this can be tricky, and time consuming, but it should be very feasible. If you need some tips on it, feel free to ask me.
you really should work on introductory tutorials and teaching materials
I am in fact working on a Reduxintroduction video, which is meant to double as a (very) brief tutorial.
There is a LOT to take in, but I think the most important and honest approach is to somehow make it clear how the thing works, and let people decide if they want or need such a thing themselves.
May I make the modest proposal that in the context of advertising like this, you really should work on introductory tutorials and teaching materials, as well as maybe war stories
War stories, haha. Haven’t heard that term before.
“How I conquered and tamed a thousand breakbeats. Now they do my every bidding”
Yeah, let’s share our war stories 
War stories, haha. Haven’t heard that term before.
“How I conquered and tamed a thousand breakbeats. Now they do my every bidding”Yeah, let’s share our war stories
No shit. There I was: 2PM in a Starbucks, the gig starting at 8, and just a half-broken laptop with Renoise on it. At the next table, two hipsters were arguing about kantian moral imperatives and nietzschean morality.
I put in my NRG earbuds, loaded up my sound libraries, and got to work …
…
Buy Renoise. Now!
What are you waiting for?
Short version: group internal sends, support of multiple VST audio-ins and a proper instrument concept. 