Work in progress: Piano roll

Is this project dead again? Unfortunately, I can see many projects with a good start but with no end… :frowning:

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@Lemi Hi Michal, Could you finish yours?
Unfortunately, as with Renoise, the API is not 100% either. Some things are missing that are supposed to already be included, following the consistency of what is already included. Maintaining the API is a huge job too. I am sure that the responsible programmer knows perfectly what needs to be added and fixed, and little by little he has been fixing things. It need to continue to do so…

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@Raul It is easy to comment or criticize but finish it yourself is another story, isn’t it? My comment wasn’t a critic but something like a sigh. You are right, my project is with no end too. I decided not to continue because the result will not meet the requirements I would expect from a good piano roll, Renoise API doesn’t allow and will not allow that I am afraid…

Exact! That’s why I asked you. I remember you had your own project.

I think the same thing happens to all of us. We want to advance some tools but the API does not have a couple of things that end up ruining the whole project.

Right now I have 2 projects almost finished (a massive note injector and an extensive MIDI controller). The truth is that I will finish them and some detail will still be missing because the API does not allow to finish it, especially this last project. It is a very uncomfortable situation.

I know taktik has been very busy fixing things in the latest version, supporting MAC and everything related to VST3. Also, fixed some API details with version 6.1

I trust in him. There is no reason to not keep polishing the API further. There are not many things missing either, and some have to do with Renoise’s behavior when receiving an order from the API, such as visually centralizing some element so that the user does not lose the visual focus of what he has just selected from the API.

But yes, all this update stuff is very slow. It takes a lot of patience.

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I think the best way to complete a powerful piano roll for Renoise is to create a separate application that will control Renoise with OSC. I remember that someone did it as a private project. But to complete a good piano roll is lots of work. I think to complete a similar PRE to Fruity Studio, Cubase, Reason takes about months of everyday work, and not so many people are able to hang on and complete it. If you have time Raul, don’t bother with the limits of the Renoise API (that is really great and enough for tools but not for a different approach of editing) use C++ or C# and some GUI library and do your application with no limitations. Life is too short…

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Even when your result was not good, sharing is always an option. I learned alot about LUA and Renoise API in recent days, because of several questions from @Raul and others in the API forum. Also the Paddles tool got me on point, how to achieve grids. My approach of a piano roll: image

Its not ready to use. I’ll post it here and on github, when it’s kind of usable. So everyone can see the code and maybe we can improve it even more. Renoise API and the view builder is pretty limiting, but for some basic piano roll it’s enough.

Edit: Made a twitter post to show the current state in action: https://twitter.com/xoonx/status/1350788024465055744

Edit 2: Forum post about this tool: Another piano roll: com.dufte.SimplePianoroll.xrnx

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True! :grinning:


Anyway…Did it cross the mind that if you implement a ‘scriptable extension system’ to this program (in this case called ‘Renoise lua’), some people are going to want to write a interactive synthesizer/a piano roll/interact with the the playback transport/samples while it is playing or even write games with it(?) I’m fairly certain that it would’ve crossed my mind.

My claims are not excluded. I am not the one who wants to develop that big project using OSC and for me, it is not the way. But it is the way for somebody who wants to complete that task almost with no limitation (it means GUI as you want, full support for mouse events, fluent scrolling, etc.).

You are right, I would like to have some additional functions in the API too, but it is a question not for me but for a Renoise developer. …and better to have limited API than nothing. Most DAWs don’t have API.

Sure. Finally to be truthful I generally follow the principle:

"Use 'Renoise' (or insert any software name here) for what it is, not for what it could be."

Most people find it easier to post/spam/argue about what the developer(s) should do with their software on forums than it is to write good music or code programs.

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Yes, it is the very right principle! Always is good to ask at first but doesn’t make sense to request or argue about it. BTW you created your roll, why not to release it for others?

Miniroll was just a hack example to show getting the track/pattern data to/from Renoise to draw up the notes into a external process. It was nowhere near a useful piano roll from a musicians point of view :slight_smile:

people look, Renoise is a TRACKER-BASED Digital Audio Workstation.
there never has been the (or wasn’t much of) intention to add any piano-roll, because it’s a freaking tracker.

if you so desperately need a piano-roll, you should look for other daws.
bitwig, reaper, lmms (this is even for free).

what i dislike the most about this topic is that one of you piano-roll Lua devs offering your Lua Tool as a demo version. are you serious???

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@taktik Please add proper GUI drawing (simple vector stuff) and proper mouse event handling to the API. Thanks!

Sorry to say, but this matter has been commented on the forums hundreds of times, and I’m sure he knows perfectly well that interested LUA programmers who make great tools need this as paramount, and it’s not just to build a proper new pianoroll, no weird API + LUA tricks.

If this were possible, Renoise could have a better pianoroll than other DAWs, and it would be a “simple” LUA tool, an option, something not programmed by Renoise’s “team”. By this I don’t mean that building a piano roll with all those mouse tricks is easy… But I’m sure many users would be surprised. In the end it is not that complicated either once you know the API and LUA well :smiley:

There are very different approaches to windowed LUA tools that would take full advantage of these capabilities with the mouse and with a proper GUI.

Possibly the problem is the same, hardly anyone today buys a Renoise license. Why bother? Work and time must be paid! I can’t find another explanation for such lack of communication and dedication.

Renoise needs to improve his tracker, cover bugs (his GUI keeps dragging certain problems with windows, at least on Windows), complete things that are missing in the API, things that should already be for consistency (for example, the Sampler section Modulation is somewhat neglected and does not work well with targets nor does it update the Renoise GUI well with device chains, all this prevents proper control from a tool), listen to the LUA programmers who contribute the most to this community, so that keep increasing with the creativity of tools, which today are the only section that is really interesting.

I myself am tired of commenting on problems that I have encountered while building tools, and they are ignored over and over again (some have been fixed, many others have not). And waiting 2 years to see that the new version does not solve them is desperate. Makes you want to go somewhere else.

I love Renoise, I love programming tools, but I hate this constant situation! @Airman, a greeting! There are people who do not forget! :pensive:

Of course! and? And I am enormously surprised that you are surprised, @teis.

Can’t you get enough of everything you can get for free? This has a name. EGOISM and ARROGANCE! Being an exploiter person from others! Stop treating people like they’re stupid.

I find it useless to discuss these matters with anyone. But I’m going to tell you because I’m sick of comments like this, because you’re the second or third to ask in recent years. People who complain that they want everything for free and that others should do everything for free, is very immature. Grow a little mind! No one has to always give away everything. What have you believed? This is typical behavior for a 10-year-old toddler.

When you make extensive tools and give them to others, you come back and tell me about it. Okay?

By the way, who are you? Because I don’t know you at all. Do you understand the matter?

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Yeah this is frustrating, but nothing new. Please let’s stay fair here. Renoise is somewhat like a sparetime project of Taktik and his crew, pretty sure they are busy with other fulltime jobs, family etc. most of the time. So we can’t expect anything not realistic here. You can only lower your expectations then, to not be frustrated anymore. Maybe it is not an easy task to add these things, due the way Renoise is structured (Taktik himself wrote once that the codebase is really old from today’s perspective. 3rd party apis change over time or often are not even developed further anymore. Then targetting 3 platforms at once surely takes extra time, etc). So he will do other things with higher priority first.

So the only thing we can hope, at least, is that what already exists, works properly, or at least is complete, within its limitations, as a first step. Being realistic and fair!
And the next step would be to improve what already exists, not add new things!
And the next step would be to add new things…
I think it’s clear where the priorities are and the usual situation and history.

:grinning: How painful!

I know it was a lot of work to add the GUI scaling. Would it be a lot of work to rewrite the base code so that the GUI always works smoothly with the latest generation graphics cards? Because this really deserves a new v4.0. There really is nothing left to do with Renoise other than minor bugs and completing the API for LUA tools.

If Renoise were to blow up the GPU, it would free up resources for the CPU and everything would work much better. They are obvious comments. But here people get lost with asking for audio tracks, pianoroll and other things, but the real work is there, in solving the CPU + GPU resources. Everything else is nonsense.

dude… i don’t even use your piano-roll. and won’t use it, not even if it would be for fuckin’ free!
so stop insinuating me that i ain’t using it because it’s not for free.

why did you get yourself a renoise license in the first place, knowing that it has no pianoroll?
whynot just get redux license and use it in any other pianoroll daw??

who i am? a tracker since the early years,since freaking noisetracker on amiga.
been sticking with renoise since < v1.0. you can even find me under “Who We Are”!

who are you? … who??? … right!

So what are you complaining about? Oh yeah, you want it all for free! Even things that you will never use? Seriously, I think you have not thought well what you have written.

I hope you can sleep at night and not be so disgusted. You sure have other more important things… Precisely with comments like yours it is useless to talk about these matters. You will keep coming back here to impose your rules. Relax a bit and stop meddling in matters you don’t care about, precisely because you don’t know me at all, dude.

I think it’s great that you are a very old person. But I am still surprised by your words. Have you really written this ?:

Is this what you dislike the most? Wow. You sure have other more important things to do…