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WTF: Font size with 2560x1440 and 4K ... Eye cancer


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#1 CrapWare

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 02:52

Renoise is a big crap software.

 

You will get Eye cancer if you are using it.

 

 

Nowhere is an option to increase the Font size^^

 

Uninstalled.

 



#2 xrxs

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 09:15

lol



#3 ffx

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 10:36

You can change the pattern font size. Other fonts are not changeable. Ultra high resolution is not supported.

Can renoise at least then offer a custom resolution for full screen mode, so that you could switch to a lower resolution here?

Or renoise could respect the os gui scaling factor, multiplicating it with all font sizes and gui dimensions?

I wanted to switch to 4k soon.....

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#4 joule

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 11:14

I have a 2560x monitor, and I'd guess that this is the worst resolution for Renoise - (say 27" and below). That's something to bear in mind when investing in a new monitor.

 

With 4k, you could at least run Renoise in "double pixel" mode (200%) - 1920x1080, which seems pretty optimal to me. Or 100% if the monitor is of the big ass type. I'd imagine it works fairly well with 4k (?), at least compared to 2560.

 

PS. The Renoise dev has said that they started working on a high DPI GUI.


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#5 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 11:16

Renoise is a big crap software.

 

You will get Eye cancer if you are using it.

 

Nowhere is an option to increase the Font size^^

 

Uninstalled.

 

Renoise is a big crap in high resolutions, in HD (1920x1080) or lower is not. I'm sorry you're right, if you mean this.

 

But it is possible to adjust everything a little ...

 

... Other fonts are not changeable. ...

 

This is not entirely true. Is it possible to do this: change the size of fonts in Renoise 3.1 (a little)

 
This matter has been discussed a thousand times in the forums. The text is in fixed-size boxes. The problem is not really the fonts, but the boxes are of fixed size. Then, you can increase the size fonts, but they will appear out of the box if the size is too large. At least it is possible to increase the size a little and relieve the sight a little. But it is far from a decent solution.
 
Another issue is icons. They are very small still images, in bmp or png format. Making Renoise compatible in high resolutions involves changing these icons to vector images, or adding other stills with higher resolutions.
 
Many months ago DBlue told me that it was not possible to do anything. Renoise is like that and you have to be satisfied. Months later, Taktik announced that he was working on adapting Renoise for big resolutions. But parked its development.
 
This change may require a lot of work. I'm sure Taktik does not want to break any tools. Possibly because of this, the current GUI and the tools themselves are a drag on themselves for their development.
 
Test the changes of the link, you will notice the internal problems of the Renoise GUI for high resolutions. The same problem you will have when building tools.
I hope that Taktik will focus on improving Renoise's GUI with everything it needs, even if that means breaking the tools. By the way, we would clean the obsolete tools.
 
No tool programmer will protest if Renoise's GUI is drastically improved for high resolutions. By the way, it would serve to optimize graphic performance, which for some reason does not work fine at all when increasing or decreasing Renoise panels and in reproduction. In a short time it will be possible to update each tool, if necessary.
 
We want that Renoise evolve looking forward, even if it means sacrificing things from the past.

Edited by Raul (ulneiz), 24 July 2017 - 12:08.

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#6 joule

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 11:27

@Raul, Speculating.. I'm pretty sure that adapting renoise.Viewbuilder is among the more simple tasks technically, compared to the rest of the renoise GUI + bitmaps. Some of the controls are already close to scalable (apart from their labels), and it would just be a simple matter of multiplying widths and heights with the scaling factor.

 

Just guessing, I can imagine that Viewbuilder is slightly more sensibly/simply structured (and thereby more easily adaptable) compared to the rest of the GUI. Scaling tools shouldn't be such a big deal (?).



#7 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 11:52

@Raul, Speculating.. I'm pretty sure that adapting renoise.Viewbuilder is among the more simple tasks technically, compared to the rest of the renoise GUI + bitmaps. Some of the controls are already close to scalable (apart from their labels), and it would just be a simple matter of multiplying widths and heights with the scaling factor.

 

Just guessing, I can imagine that Viewbuilder is slightly more sensibly/simply structured (and thereby more easily adaptable) compared to the rest of the GUI. Scaling tools shouldn't be such a big deal (?).

 

You know that any detail can return an error in a tool, any change can convert an GUI of the tool with an unsuitable appearance. And, if the tool uses icons or background images, it will need to be updated. Technically it may not be a problem, but something happened to Taktik to make it parked, I am speculating according to your comments.

 

In fact, if with ViewBuilder we had the ability to resize and type fonts, we could already build tools with scalable GUI, an x2, x3, x4 ... Maybe using a multiplier would suffice.


Edited by Raul (ulneiz), 24 July 2017 - 12:05.

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#8 dblue

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 12:33

Many months ago DBlue told me that it was not possible to do anything. Renoise is like that and you have to be satisfied.


I don't believe I've ever said that it was impossible, I simply said that overhauling the entire application to support true high DPI scaling would be a lot of work (which it is!).

I may have also made some comments referring to hacking Renoise's config to change font sizes and things like that. By doing so it is possible to make some basic tweaks to the fonts, but it is not possible to force all of Renoise's GUI elements to fully adapt to the changes you make, since almost everything is hard-coded to work at specific pixel sizes. So for example you can't simply change the font size from 11px to 22px and expect all other GUI elements to double in size.

But, yes... Taktik has indeed made some progress moving towards true support for high DPI displays. It's an ongoing process that still requires a lot of work and testing, but it will eventually become a reality. You guys will just have to be patient until then.

#9 ffx

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 12:39


I don't believe I've ever said that it was impossible, I simply said that overhauling the entire application to support true high DPI scaling would be a lot of work (which it is!).

I may have also made some comments referring to hacking Renoise's config to change font sizes and things like that. By doing so it is possible to make some basic tweaks to the fonts, but it is not possible to force all of Renoise's GUI elements to fully adapt to the changes you make, since almost everything is hard-coded to work at specific pixel sizes. So for example you can't simply change the font size from 11px to 22px and expect all other GUI elements to double in size.

But, yes... Taktik has indeed made some progress moving towards true support for high DPI displays. It's an ongoing process that still requires a lot of work and testing, but it will eventually become a reality. You guys will just have to be patient until then.

 
So is it possible that you can give us any kind of raw, guarantee-free time plan?  I mean, isn't it unfair to let the people wait for maybe years? People even don't know if they will have to wait 1 year or 4 years?   Can the situation in any way get worse than it is already?

Edited by ffx, 24 July 2017 - 12:39.

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#10 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 12:59

@Dblue

 

Many months ago DBlue told me that it was not possible to do anything. Renoise is like that and you have to be satisfied. Months later, Taktik announced that he was working on adapting Renoise for big resolutions. But parked its development.

 

 

I mean at all times by the user. The user can not do anything. It is impossible for the user. The solution: be patient. At least, there is a little trick to relieve sight with the fountains, meanwhile. For many months now people are looking to buy 2k or 4k monitors to upgrade, and I'm sure that with more space, Renoise would improve a lot in vertical, to Matrix Editor and Pattern Editor with longer vertical length.

 

Curiously, the other day I shared this video of a review of the alphanumeric keyboard model that I use. As I already know the keyboard, I did not notice him. However, in the video there are two panoramic monitors, one on top of the other.
 
Watch the monitors (two panoramic monitors in vertical):
Currently, I use two 1920x1080 monitors in horizontal, and made of less longer vertical length. All this is related to this topic...
 
I want to point out that you observe this distribution of the video. It may be the best solution for Renoise today. The rest is waiting patiently for Taktik to return.

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#11 OopsIFly

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 15:49

I just thought maybe it would also work like...doing it the other way round maybe.

 

I'd be totally fine with a version that uses 100% of the old layout. Just the bitmaps internally replaced with vector fonts/graphics, and a single simple "zoom" slider in the settings that will allow you to adjust the preferred size/scale of the program to your liking, set to default by operating system dpi setting. This would make it useable for hidpi, and also work on very low resolutions by scaling down a bit (I got a netbook...).

 

Normally a good operating system should have a window manager that would allow pixel zooming, not perfectly clean graphics then unless you use exactly 2x or 4x, but better than nothing. On linux it is a pain to set up, and I dunno about win/mac-



#12 Name User

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Posted 25 July 2017 - 00:23

just move ya dumbass head up to the screen

 

renoise is the shit at high resolutions, you don't need scaling, you get more space for extremely sophisticated speedcore this way

 

eat your carrots and drink some milk fool



#13 Meef Chaloin

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Posted 25 July 2017 - 08:37

nEvC2Fp.jpg


Edited by Meef Chaloin, 25 July 2017 - 21:04.

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#14 ffx

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Posted 25 July 2017 - 20:14

Actually I just found out the macOS display scaling works nicely with Renoise already. So on 2880 x 1800 Retina, you can watch Renoise at 1440x900 or even something like 1920x1080, thanks to system rescaling. 

 

Maybe there also is a trick to set this per application? I don't know...


Edited by ffx, 25 July 2017 - 20:15.

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#15 OopsIFly

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Posted 25 July 2017 - 20:49

yes that's what I meant, let the os just do the scaling. It is such a simple operation that I really cannot understand it not being there easy to be accessed ever since window managers started using gpus. and then let each programs design be fixed, so much easier to design and maintain for the devs. it occured to me that the idea that every single prog has its own way to handle dpi is a bit absurd, only excuse would be a software that tries to implement it in some special way that is nessecary for functional or aesthetical reasons.

 

I once was close to trying to hack compiz on linux to allow me to just upscale single windows, also for legacy games and such. But then I took an arrow to the knee, and got new glasses, and started liking the tiny detailedness,...


Edited by OopsIFly, 25 July 2017 - 20:49.


#16 Mivo

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 06:59

Taktik has indeed made some progress moving towards true support for high DPI displays. It's an ongoing process that still requires a lot of work and testing, but it will eventually become a reality. You guys will just have to be patient until then.


Is there a time estimate that you'd be comfortable sharing? I switched to a 1440p display about two years ago, and I have been patient since then. With things being so quiet, it's hard for me to evaluate what time frame we might be looking at here.

#17 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 09:21

nEvC2Fp.jpg

 

:D Although the image is funny, it does not seem the best scenario to indicate what is happening here. Rather it could be a screen of many inches with many pixels, 2k, 4k or 5k. And when you program, you have to think for the future even for 6k or 7k...

 

Renoise began to be manufactured 17 years ago. Then it seemed reasonable to use screens 800x600 or the desired size, 1024x768. Many current netbooks up to 15 "have the resolution of 1024x768.If you notice how the panels are distributed in Renoise, you will realize that Renoise's resolution base is 1024x768. From there you can see well up to 1920x1080 pixels on monitors of 24 "(If they are 27" better.) At higher resolution Renoise 3.1 should not be installed, because of the user's health and sight.

 

@OoplFly. The best option is for Renoise to allow scaling (control of image size and frames, and control of font size). Remember that there are 3 packages, one for Linux, one for MacOS and one for Windows. DBlue has indicated it before. Renoise Is built pixel by pixel, with fixed box sizes. In fact, it allows you to resize the fonts. But because the boxes are fixed and the images are not vector, it is not possible to make an accurate scaling. A non-vector image, if magnified, will be jagged. It would only be possible to scale x2 (2x2 pixels represent 1 pixel), x3 (3x3 pixels represent 1 pixel), or something, and that would not do much for large resolution screens. What is possible is to have more control so that the user can adjust the size to their liking and be able to take more space. This is where the work is.

 

If you have a huge screen and you will see practically the same size as in 1920x1080, for example, it will not do much of the climbing. The interesting thing is two things: that the user does not go blind, and at the same time, it is possible to gain space with larger screens, especially in height.

 


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#18 ffx

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 11:14

I wasn't into 4k thematic until now!!

So I can basically summarize:

- The OS scaling usually just is a virtual resolution, which will be downscaled then to the actual resolution. For example I have a 4K screen, but can set the HiDPI to smaller. In result, the OS now will render the desktop in in 5120 x 2880 (vs. 3840 x 2160 as 4K). So everything will appear a bit anti-aliased, but on a 4K screen that is much less noticeable. Still only the native resolution will bring ultra crisp graphics.

- The app then requires HiDPI to support, to be able to support the native 4K, but then resize the GUI. The OSes do not provide such mechanism (that's what I had assumed before)

- For macOS, I guess the recent way to do scaling is to use the Metal or even Metal2 framework, or some provided macos apis, which will then use metal by itself

- Windows still looks ugly, maybe because of ugly font rendering, I don't know, but who cares.

Edited by ffx, 01 August 2017 - 11:16.

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#19 joule

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 11:25

FYI, Windows 10 seems to scale Renoise perfectly at 200% - meaning you can run double pixels at 4k to get very similar result as normal 1920x1080. I don't know about macos, but who cares ;)

 

If you wanna run 2560x1440 (100% scaling being the only feasible option here), i recommend no less than a 27" monitor. It doesn't feel too far away from 1920x1080 at 24" size wise.


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#20 ffx

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 11:47

I meant in general, that Windows looks ugly and anti-ergonomic, no matter what they try. The fonts always - if you get used to macos :P

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#21 joule

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 11:51

Oh. I thought this forum was about Renoise. AFAIK, there is absolutely no difference between the Renoise font rendering in Windows vs macos. At least apart from the splash screen.


Edited by joule, 01 August 2017 - 11:51.

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#22 ffx

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 11:54

Nothing to report about Renoise, so I changed the topic. Yes, looks exactly same. I wonder for the future, if it would be suitable "simply" to make all elements in a 3x sized bitmap, instead vectorize everything? Never built a app GUI, so I have no clue.

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#23 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 12:00

... Windows 10 seems to scale Renoise perfectly at 200% - meaning you can run double pixels at 4k to get very similar result as normal 1920x1080 ...

 

If it looks approximately as in 1920x1080, then you do not gain space, you only get not to go blind. To get out of step with version 3.1 is fine, but not to take advantage of a 4K monitor or higher. It is assumed that if you have a 4K monitor, you want to gain space, more area in each panel, at the same time that you have a pleasant and clear, not forced reading. I would not buy a 4K monitor to see Renoise at 200%, compared to a HD (1920x1080). What I want to say is that for me they are two things, not one: having good reading and at the same time gaining space.

 

With 200% you have a happy reading, but you do not gain space. It's just a comment.


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Spoiler

#24 joule

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 12:06

Raul,

 

Captain obvious ;) Just out of curiousity. Are you expecting a high dpi compatible version of Renoise to scale only certain elements, but not others? Otherwise your concern of real estate makes no sense to me.



#25 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 12:44

Raul,

 

Captain obvious ;) Just out of curiousity. Are you expecting a high dpi compatible version of Renoise to scale only certain elements, but not others? Otherwise your concern of real estate makes no sense to me.

 

I'm saying that you could control the overall scaling of the entire program, and at the same time have the ability to modify some elements that containing fonts, for a more personalized setting. So, you can configure panels with smaller scale with the general scale preference (more work area) and larger fonts with larger scale with elements scale preferences (less work area)...

 

What do you mean, with "Captain obvious"?


:excl: Development of my tool: GT16-Colors

 

:excl: My API wishlist R3.1 (updated 24 July 2017):

Spoiler

 

:excl: My Renoise 3.1 wishlist (updated 18 July 2017):

Spoiler