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Does note off play one tick of a sample?


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#1 pat

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 04:10

I've got a simple hi-hat loop with hits on every eighth note. If I put an OFF command on beat 2, I hear the beginning of the next hat, like it's playing it for one tick.

 

I guess I just noticed this... but does an OFF play for one tick? So if I don't want to hear anything on that line, I need to use a Cxy command on the line before?

 

Example attached...

 

 

Attached Files



#2 lettuce

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 06:47

Note-off seems not to cut the volume for 1 tick even though there is no volume envelope in sampler modulation.

Your second hihat in the hihat loop is perfectly aligned to 16ths in the sample editor.

Cutting the hi-hat at the eleventh tick seems to be the only way.

There must be a problem with note-off.



#3 4Tey

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 07:51

Also see this post (topic) might be related -> Retrigger problem

 

If the NNA is set to note off, then it will obviously trigger the release stage of whatever volume envelope you have defined, or it will apply a simple fade out at the very least.

But even when NNA is set to cut, it does not simply cut the previous note to dead silence instantly, it will still apply a short fade out — ironically to avoid clicks!

So you are indeed hearing a tiny overlapping portion of the snare drum from the 2nd half of the sample while the previous note briefly fades out.



#4 pat

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 08:01

Yeah it seems like it does that fade-out regardless of how the instrument is set up... I was hoping that setting it to note-off with an AHDSR of 0/0/0/1/0 would be instant cut off but nope.


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#5 El°HYM

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 12:23

Depending on what #groove your going for, you could also use the track delay in the mixer to shift the hat a bit, until it silences the next hat via note off.


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#6 lettuce

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 18:54

He has no volume envelope applied, so the note-off is not triggering the release stage.

 

His hihats are perfectly aligned to 16ths so shifting them with delay is pointless.

 

The problem is that note-off is not cutting the volume instantly as it should, but cutting it after one tick.

 

It must be a bug, a problem with note-off.



#7 dblue

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 22:30

It must be a bug, a problem with note-off.


It's not a bug, it's simply a minor limitation of how it currently works.

In the vast majority of situations, instantly cutting the volume of a playing sound to silence will result in a discontinuity and a nasty click.

Example: Attached File  dblue-2018-02-04-note-off-click-demo.wav   826.92KB   12 downloads

Here I'm playing a simple bassline with a pure sinewave. The first bar is with volume ramping on the note off, the second bar is without volume ramping. The difference between them and problem I'm talking about should be immediately obvious. When volume ramping is disabled it sounds like total shit.


The problem that pat has encountered is a very specific case that reveals a minor flaw in the note off volume ramping.

It's an unfortunate problem, but you can work around it in a variety of different ways.

If you find yourself needing to repeatedly play a small portion of longer sample, you can simply cut that small portion out to a new sample and make your precise edits there instead.

You could also use slice markers on the longer sample, since Renoise will not perform any volume ramping when the end of a slice is reached. This would negate the need for note off commands altogether.

Example: Attached File  note-off-tick-slice-fix.xrns   376.81KB   10 downloads


Some better control over the volume ramping in Renoise would of course be great, not just for note offs but for other thing like automating volume levels from the pattern or with meta devices. I would welcome the ability to increase or reduce its ramping amount, or to even disable it completely for certain situations. But for right now, you'll simply have to live with it and find your own workarounds for these edge cases where its effects are not desirable.
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#8 pat

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 23:54

You could also use slice markers on the longer sample, since Renoise will not perform any volume ramping when the end of a slice is reached. This would negate the need for note off commands altogether.

 

 

Yeah this came up because I learned about the "play sample past slice marker" feature... which is killer for sequencing breaks. So I am using slices, but I want to specify when it should stop playing via a NOTE-OFF, because I also want the ability to play past the next slice.

 

 

Some better control over the volume ramping in Renoise would of course be great, not just for note offs but for other thing like automating volume levels from the pattern or with meta devices. I would welcome the ability to increase or reduce its ramping amount, or to even disable it completely for certain situations. But for right now, you'll simply have to live with it and find your own workarounds for these edge cases where its effects are not desirable.

 

 

I suspected this would be the case, it seems like the inverse of what happens with Sxx commands, which have a little fade-in. If you have precisely trimmed beats then it softens the attack because of the fade-in. The automatic fade-in / fade-out is great for samples that aren't cut perfectly, but has that downside when you do have samples that you want to start and end precisely. Hopefully you guys consider some way of making those fades optional in a future release.

 

dblue thanks for confirming the behavior and the workarounds. Cxx / Oxx does the job in this situation for me, and I'm sure I can work out a tool to insert them if I want.



#9 lettuce

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Posted 05 February 2018 - 04:34

O.K I see. Note-off needs a tiny fade even if no amplitude envelope release stage is being triggered to avoid pops and clicks.