2 years without update ?

Bugs however are more of maintenance thing, just like typos…could happen even while playing a jazz solo- unless you remember that there are no wrong notes only wrong choices :slight_smile:

The thing is the Jazz is the end in itself surely? The odd mistake can add to its charm and enjoyment even through learning via that mistake. If I get a puncture in my car tyre though it can scupper a larger goal. Might mean I miss an inspirational lecture somewhere. Could even be fatal if I`m driving to the hospital…

Humans are imperfect so whatever they construct is also imperfect unless it’s directly copy pasted from the universal inspiration bank to whatever medium available at the disposal of the human being. That medium will never be perfected by definition so updates are expected the moment it is built. The last version of anything at all still needs an update…it’s an infinite line ahead…

Indeed (unless the universal inspiration bank is imperfect too; Ive only heard humans talk about this bank or draw on its reserves after all), but at least through iteration and motivated work we can get to a finer approximation of an ideal. Nothing wrong with that IMO. I still look at skyscrapers and wonder how the hell did we ever do that? Even if an engineer looks at it and says "Im gonna make one bigger"

Perfection is an illusion and perfection angers the Gods.

Could we learn a perfect lesson from this? Or is it just a better approximation of a Godly wisdom :stuck_out_tongue:

Anyhow, I say striving is good for the soul :slight_smile:

…renoise 3.2 might be even better…

Renoise now has quite a lot of bugs. Also some parts do not properly work (anymore), like korg vsts (renoise only problem). Also CPU usage of the GUI is high on 4k (it’s a CPU driven gui for most parts it seems). And then the lack of obvious base functionality which was discussed here many times over the last decade, e.g. parallel container, fine automation recording, gui knob automation recording, more precise midi note recording, better quantisation (magnet etc), automation for pitchbend/modwheel while recording, midi import in place with some options (like drummode), yes audio sidechain (thru vst 2.4 3/4 input), 16 knobs for doofer and instruments + switch handles, using instrument dsp for vsti, improvement of pattern visualisation, phrase midi recording, edit beyond boundaries, horizontal note aliases or instrument play groups, spline curve in automation and so on.

If the devs had the motivation, there were so many ideas to improve Renoise. Make Renoise great again!

Also some parts do not properly work (anymore), like korg vsts (renoise only problem)

KLC working for me now on macOS after recent update, have to authorise using the AU versions though

No #update since 2007 /vers.3.50 …still state of the art in the industry; just be thankful for what you got!

perfection angers the Gods.

Really? How do you know this?

No #update since 2007 /vers.3.50 …still state of the art in the industry; just be thankful for what you got!

So f***** true! One listen to Dilla and The Roots and you know they ain’t kidding around with it. They ‘perfected’ the workflow as we know it now, with contributions from the entire community evolving as always. For true hip hop heads here you must know Marley Marl who is the father of sample based Beatmaking as we know it. Read up and listen to his stuff !

Really? How do you know this?

Literature, philosophy, Bible, life experience, marketing and commerce, psychology books, innate human imperfections and looking for attaining it via artificial means without acknowledgment of one’s innate perfection of being by being constructed by an intelligence superior to us and so on…

The other thing is people also abuse such proverbs by stating that there is no need for ANY perfection which is not what this means, otherwise stagnating would be perfect is not it? Or why do we have the proverb ‘Cleanliness is next to Godliness’, is because it does not mean we ‘obsess’ over cleaning every single speck of dust from the house or rinse every bacteria out our gut becos we feel it’s ‘dirty’, that would most definitely kill us. Rather it means to practice common sense and keep clean and wash hands and clean the house reasonably well and practice spiritual hygiene too.

The perfection is in the balance, not the extremes.

You can ride a bycycle only one way that is by balancing it. Also no scientist can exactly explain why we can balance it!

Finally ‘Tower of Babel’. ( I also typoed ‘Towel of Babel’ which made me think that it must be very perfect towel to begin with!)

@encryptedmind, thanks for the response, but I don’t think you answered my question, specifically about why perfection angers the gods which to me seems to be anthropomorphizing the idea of a god (gods?) and also discouraging the pursuit of perfection… personally I don’t think the gods give a shit…

Pursuit of perfection is no bad thing as long as you know it can’t be attained, but at the same time know that whatever you have right now could be better.

Perhaps we are saying the same thing but in different ways!

I’m not using Renoise much these days, I just passed by to see if there’s any update or some cool new feature to get me inspired and I stumbled upon this thread.

Let me preface that I’m a software developer, so I know a thing or two about software life-cycles. I know how stressful it can be to have people constantly asking you for updates and new features and I’m also aware of how easy it is to burn-out in our job. Sometimes you just lose interest in a project because it doesn’t offer anymore an interesting challenge or you’re aware of changes / rafactorings to be made to keep it going and simply you find it boring or overly complicated. There are million things that can go wrong while developing a software and a million reasons why you don’t want to work on it anymore or you simply can’t.

So, If the developers are absent or don’t give us updates and don’r communicate about the future of the project, I 100% understand them.

But , and I want to be as straight as possible in this, I’ve read here multiple “the software hasn’t been updated in 2 years and that’s because it’s perfect as it is” is bullshit.

No software is perfect and no software project is ever completed. Yes, there are some base command-line utilities in Unix (copy files, list the content of a directory) that haven’t been touched in like 20 years, but that’s an exception. Renoise is a complex software with the enormously broad scope of “making music”, you can’t draw a line anywhere and just say “That’s it. No bug will ever appear anymore, no matter what you do. It can’t run smoother or faster, we have covered all the possibile platoforms and there are no more possible features that can improve users’ workflow and creativity”. It doesn’t work this way and it doesn’t make sense.

There are bug reports that haven’t been taken care of. There are long-requested features (proper sample track?) that are still in hiatus. A software is perfect and finished when nobody can even imagine a missing feature and without giving it too much thought, I can invent new features right now:

  1. Renoise is mainly sample based, but it supports VSTs. It could come up with its own basic VSTs like most DAWs do. FL Studio has loads, some free, some not, some as basic as 3 OSCillators and a filter, some as complex as Harmor. Renoise could come packed with some VSTs, the area of improvement is limitless. It could provide a way to mix and match basic generators with filters and envelopes and effects and let you create your own instruments like MAX do.

  2. Is Renoise perfect for live performances? No. It could copy / steal / improve / get inspired by Ableton Live workflow

  3. Does it integrate perfectly with any hardware controller? Nope. Area of improvement

  4. Does Renoise make it easy to live-record vocals / instruments and integrate the recording with your track? Does it have comping? Does it have audio tracks? Is it easy to visualize and work with audio tracks that span multiple patterns? No. Another area of improvement.

I could really go onat libitum, and the thing is, you could too. This is just a wake-up call for those that for reasons that elude me want to negate that Renoise, as much as we love it, is a wonderful project that has been having severe development problems in the last years. Pretending that this is not true and telling yourself that is is all natural and planned because the software is perfect doesn’t help anyone, nor the developers, the community, nor yourself. It’s just being delusional.

Just my 2 cents :slight_smile:

@encryptedmind, thanks for the response, but I don’t think you answered my question, specifically about why perfection angers the gods which to me seems to be anthropomorphizing the idea of a god (gods?) and also discouraging the pursuit of perfection… personally I don’t think the gods give a shit…
Pursuit of perfection is no bad thing as long as you know it can’t be attained, but at the same time know that whatever you have right now could be better.
Perhaps we are saying the same thing but in different ways!

Actually it’s very much the same thing we are talking about with some arcs that go about each other.

I think what God wants is us humans to feel adequate already because otherwise it’s a direct insult to God as if us telling him ‘you are God and you made us like this? We ain’t happy, we want bigger tits, longer noses and flatter stomachs’… God gave you full opportunity to develop yourself you to your best in that one lifetime chance and unless its a mystery if someone gets born deficient in some foundational ability, it will indeed be an insult we make to God if we continue that line of thinking. Also not to mention ingratitude even if it is hell on Earth or somewhere between heaven and hell.

Secondly he wants us to explore our design and exhalt the individual differences between one another and revel in its glory. Anyone can already appreciate the fact that all women and men if looked the same then no matter how perfect we are we will never be truly individual in physical form and that privilege will be lost automatically. So yes being different is a privilege even if it is skin deep. Our personalities will differ no doubt and in that kind of society where everyone lacks physical individuality a different kind of chaos will occur. Thank God that is not the case. He wants humans to be like the musical instruments in a symphonic orchestra being a master of ones’s own construction and abilities. Instead of a viola playing what a viola can and should, we end up doing comparisons and demotions as if the violin can do the job of the timpani and the piano the job of the clarinet. And becos of that error humans are suffering from it. That under utilised potential makes the music suffer and soon the instrument thinks maybe it should quit playing music. Big mistake, becos it was designed exclusively for making music. What happens is a Tuba thinks it can only fart. An Oboe thinks it can only moan, it’s voice is too reedy; timpani thinks it’s too heavy, should be more nimble and so on. Rather than building technique and character through discipline and musicianship and collaboration and cohabitation, we have chosen to feel inadequate, differentiate, compare and condescend each other and hence the human symphony is dead so far and lives only thorough those singluar instruments in isolation from generation to generation who have bucked this trend and managed to master some aspects of their construction to shine as an instrument and as a vessel for God to play with and inspire with his universal source and LO it sounds like proper music. Imagine what a symphony would sound like if all instruments did their part and it was not only a solo performance each and every time. On any given time the last generation leaves space for the next, and yet becos the earlier generations made that mistake the next generation suffers and it seems our habits are rather easy to develop and our character begins to settle in dust. No wonder Earth sucks in a lot of things. But we can’t blame our universal playground just becos we have decided not to play with each other but rather fight with each other. It’s like complaining about the RT60 reverb value of a concert hall, Earth, when we did nothing to practice for our symphonic performance. We suck. Not the room. We are all given an opportunity to perform in the universal stage and yet we squander that one supreme privilege and when the time comes all we can muster is an off note out of sequence on an empty sheet paper devoid of both skills and character and true originality or even a cohesive team performance. Only a few give an outstanding solo performance in their universal stage schedule and go with pride but remain wistful about the rest of us. No wonder every intellectual admonishes the ‘masses’ because they never truly chip in with their efforts and never play music but only succeed in making noise.

The other analogy is of a gardener. God has given each of us a garden, huge and limitless and beautiful. He wants you to grow it and develop it and take care of it. You are it’s primary gardener and chief owner of yourself. Would you rather show God a dead and uncared garden with rotting plants and unwatered and unfertilized orchids full of insects and bugs in a deshevelled arrangement OR would you rather prefer to tend your garden tenderly and show discipline, integrity and creativity to develop an outstanding garden best suited to your tastes, as warranted by God’s gift of free will, and feel proud about it? God never wants anyone’s failure but we both partake in it and submit to it.

Similar analogy in the Bible’s Master and 3 servants story. Burying your talents for safety and worship as a memento of your master will only enrage him and the verdict as on the Bible is ‘you will also lose whatever else you have along with the fact that you wasted your God gifted opportunity’. The instructions are very loud and clear. Many of us choose willfully to engage in sacrilege or get sucked by Satan’s web of deciet.

When anyone chooses to pursue external perfection rather acknowledging God directly it’s both disrespect and disservice to both him and oneself. He wants us to excel at our design and not run after the distractions.

Hence inner perfection is certainly attainable becos it is licensed and supported by God’s blessing and his expectations while external perfection is only superficial and temporary and a transient fad most definitely fueled by Satan’s vices of inadequecy, comparison and regression instead of getting inspired by someone elses hard work and blessings,
waywardness and greed fueled by superficial and artificial goals which are in turn fuelled by hubris and where does that come from -Satan, the original Mr. Hubris and this is how he spreads destruction by tricking humans out their performance schedule and wasting their time and talent. He certainly gets a good laugh out of all this and he has had all this time to perfect his craft.

This means that humans have an additional responsibility to maintain a defensive stance against the machinations of Satan. You would imagine God created this magnificent and complex system of life where we can and are thriving for the fortunate, well guided amd gifted among us. It’s not like he wants us to taste heaven just yet, he wants an admission test too, fittingly because he wants us to adhere and rise up to his expectations. If we are living in his house, his rules. Simple. So he has given Satan his role to test humans and do his bidding within limits so that we have an incentive to achieve as well like a rewarding system. If life was too simple then humans would lose a sense of endeavour and by design we ourselves are not Gods so we don’t have that privilege too.

Regards to Renoise, think of a software in some years ahead called ‘UniversalSonicCanvas Ver Timeless’. It loads any and every plugin in this world and works with any production paradigm z better than Protools, Live, Cubase and has all their features too. Super lightweight and also has entire Renoise built into it. No bugs and can run Korg plugins without hinderance and has the best automation ever. I can already tell it will not be adopted by everyone totally because it’s just too perfect. Almost like paralysis by overanalysis. Every project can work in any direction and the internal convertor can convert a Renoise project to a Live project or a Logic project and vice versa. So where is your uniqueness and originality and innovativeness? That playgourd is stolen from you. You cannot make any sandcastles anymore, no place to hide and discover because the map is already there with a legend and an itenary. You lose the entire human incentive to better anything at all. Because everything can be done by a click. No one would be busy mastering a piano if it also can do guitar chord voicings and sound like a Tuba. Sure we have some thing similar by modern synthesis technologies but it ain’t the same thing. A piano will never be a guitar or a timpani. Those differences if blurred will lose their original meaning. It’s like the New World Order of music software. Totalitarian and intimidating and still man made. Artificial. Limiting in essence.Too forgiving. It does all backups for you too! Never mind reading the user manual becos it’s page length is 3 billion pages and quick start reads like ‘let the software do the thinking for you and see what suits best, please fill the quick automated survey next’:slight_smile: Good luck making any music with that one! I will stay away from it like the plague if I ever see the misfortune of ‘USC Ver T’ in the market. Back to MPC and Renoise.

Your skills will atrophy and become reliant on what the software can offer to you versus what you can do with the software. That is what Satan wants. Rather than you spend time gardening your God gifted and assigned garden space , he wants you to spend that time reading up on gardening catalogues and do a lot of window shopping for that ‘ideal’ gardening tool that will develop the ‘perdect garden’ FOR you. In that process he takes away your incentive, drive, rigour, creativity, innovativeness, originality and the final rewards too. He will take all your rewards and eat them for lunch:)

Another analogy is like a gym which has all the equipment in the world. You will never exercise again obviously. If you instead have just 1 pull up bar in your bedroom and you decide to make the most of it, you most definitely will build a tighter physique from regular use of it, rather than reading up exercise fantasy manuals or sales catalogues or delaying your progress by never going to the gym ever again.

Another analogy is gravity, sure it pulls you down and that is why you have posture and pose, poise and form and grace and you get to build muscle and bone density precisely because of it. If everyone was just floating around then even things like pooing would be very very difficult indeed.

Our world is perfect already by conception, we made it imperfect because we have been misinterpreting our goals rather too easily.

Sure Renoise (next version) is always a good thing, even it’s a mirage.

Oh. And I can’t bump a thread without anyone of three specific people entering it and derailing the topic (unfortunately, letting danoise “off the hook” this time). Appearantly, we are so bored with Renoise that we have to create forum drama to keep some kind of narrative going?

Renoise needs some new features to help keep this forum alive as well :slight_smile: Otherwise I’d suggest putting everything except download submissions on halt.

Oh. And I can’t bump a thread without anyone of three specific people entering it and derailing the topic (unfortunately, letting danoise “off the hook” this time). Appearantly, we are so bored with Renoise that we have to create forum drama to keep some kind of narrative going?

Renoise needs some new features to help keep this forum alive as well :slight_smile: Otherwise I’d suggest putting everything except download submissions on halt.

“The world is a stage and we are all drama queens”. That includes you too :slight_smile:

“The world is a stage and we are all drama queens”. That includes you too :slight_smile:

Yes, but I try to restrict my attention whorism to productive/constructive contexts most of the time. That’s a difference to compulsively posting trash.

Yes, but I try to restrict my attention whorism to productive/constructive contexts most of the time. That’s a difference to compulsively posting trash.

It requires a brain to think and a mouth to talk, not sure which ones you think exercising is a better endeavour… I suppose fingers rather :slight_smile: and anyways ‘scientists’ say Philosophy is dead…so why argue then…

My next version feature list is :

Whatever works for you!

Also it’s easy to trash others comments when yours get trashed once in a while too…bad after taste.

@ encrypted mind .

You seem like a decent intelligent guy , but you take everyone opportunity to polute a thread with your religious /spiritual views .sugar coated with some semi-rational thoughts .

It’s getting tiresome , and disturbing .

Well that conversation was in response to @afta8 and it’s very easy to skip and scroll down like what I happen to do most time anyways when I see blurbs or (BLOBs Binary Large Objects) in general, unless it’s a discussion in the Lua scripting forums which are attended to by atmost 2-3 folks at one time, so it’s not exactly a majority consensus by any measure(by that I mean it’s a small crowd to begin with, a great one nonetheless, and I do read those scripting posts btw )

It’s also my take on the subject which is valid nonetheless, not everyone is on a prerennial feature wait mode, and there are other far more technical posts I have typed in so far if that is what you mean.

Thirdly, the last time I posted something in these lines, it was in the flat thread topic which I started btw do you cannot erroneously surmise that ‘you take every one opportunity to etc’ becos that is simply not the case. So one personal thread and two comments here and there with ‘every’ does not an opportunist make. In any case I don’t expect everyone to talk Lua all day either so it seems rather than me take the time to type it out all fast at 96 wpm, it’s your patience that is way less than what I could have expected.

But I thank you for your polite and frank statement so I can respect your pov too. No fight about that. There are other Philosophical forums on the net too, but the issue is that they don’t like Renoise like I do so for the time being having some patience and good mousewheel skills should solve any minor annoyances since I use that a lot too. :slight_smile:

rational is a very abused word like fusion and f**. Also history is a witness to mostly very rational folks sounding irrational to the rest.

PS. I skip church many times and possibly that makes a bit guilty of myself, I think I found the cure to my guilt…visit church again.

@encryptedmind

Well, when the discussion starts as “We haven’t had updates on this software in two years” and some pages later you come across this:

“Rather than you spend time gardening your God gifted and assigned garden space , he wants to spend that time reading up on gardening catalogies”

You know that the conversation has been derailed and someone did derail it.

crew lets not waste energy in this nonsense …lets take this energy and subscribe to my channel jajajajja

jaja sorry for dropping this shitty video in the middle of this argument jj

ohh shit im local chief member :slight_smile:

@encryptedmind

Well, when the discussion starts as “We haven’t had updates on this software in two years” and some pages later you come across this:

“Rather than you spend time gardening your God gifted and assigned garden space , he wants to spend that time reading up on gardening catalogies”

You know that the conversation has been derailed and someone did derail it.

*Catalogies=catalogues. I apologize for the typo.

Seems analogies are lost in translation on these forums, and by that I mean I was typing everything in English! I assume everyone here possibly did read Great Expectations or Old Man and The Sea. I could be very wrong though but you can’t blame me for trying. Old man gotta do what an old man gotta do, fish gotta do what a fish gotta do. That is called life. Well I will try to be more succinct in future and use grammerly and precis writing services (which I have subscriptions to) to export easily digestible blurbs cherry topped with emojis. I just happen to be a little dyslexic when the notes are too much on the sheet music too, so yeah I can comprehend the problem…

Regarding update, that will be always an issue that is unsolvable pretty much like the problem of human behaviour so in essence waiting for something to perfect is as good as trying to perfect human behaviour itself by complaining about it.

Mark Twain:‘Worrying is like paying a debt you don’t owe’

Or

‘I have had a lot of worries in my life most of which never happened.’ (real good innuendo here)

I can pause thereafter.

Personally don’t mind this topic going off track, the subject of the next Renoise update is boring and been done to death… Taktik and co have explained the current status quo so the only thing left is to reflect on the existential angst this has created in all of us :slight_smile:

That said, @encryptedmind you seem like a sincere guy and I’m sure interesting to debate with over a drink, (and it’s also nice to see new folk around here)… but you seem to say a lot of words without delivering much relevant content, perhaps you could be more concise in explaining your thoughts, walls of text are difficult to digest… quality over quantity please…