A beginner with a few questions

Hello, this is my first post, I’m somewhat new to renoise, did a little on and off. Although I feel the need to ask some questions for guidance.

  1. I’m in the middle of working on my 2nd song, and after my first song and now testing on different speakers/ headphones/ earbuds, My songs seem to sound different on each of these, which is really frustrating. Here is what I have currently, specifically when the low notes hit on my main synth sound, you can’t even hear them on speakers, headphones it sounds fine as far as I can tell. I’ve tried putting a maximizer then just turn up the volume once the low notes hit, but this solution seems kinda duck-tapey.

  2. Mixing. What are the essentials in renoise for mixing, what should I be familiar with to mix well? (track dsps, effects, compressors?)

  3. Will renoise limit my potential? I hope I don’t offend anyone with this one, I’ve never used a different DAW, but it seems like a lot of people use ableton/fl studio. But renoise feels really good and I love the workflow, feels like im programming but with music. Which leads me to my next question…

  4. Where is everybody? Renoise is a really cool DAW as far as I can tell … how is the community so … small? Unfortunately this means a lot less tutorials/blogs/etc about it.

  5. Tips for uploading to soundcloud? Soundcloud seems to make my final track render quiet and the quality seems a lot less than I had in Renoise? I have a feeling this has to do with mixing as well.

Thanks guys! I appreciate it much.

Hmm, I am not sure exactly why you are having issues on different setups. I listened to your linked file on both my headphones, earbuds, and speakers and I heard the same thing on each of them. If you’re having trouble distinguishing low synth notes from the rest of the low end in the track (such as your bassdrum) I would recommend experimenting with the stereo expander and exciter, and maybe an EQ to see if you can get a more distinguished sound from your synth. Maybe also mess with the analog filter and the resonance settings. Also, be careful about overusing the maximizer. While it may seem like a great tool to bring up the volume on a track, and it is in a lot of cases, it is easy to overuse it and wash out the dynamics in your track, so be mindful.

I don’t think the essentials for Renoise mixing are that different from mixing in general. Renoise isn’t too different in terms of sound output than other DAWs from what I can tell. I don’t think I could give you a list of mixing “essentials” but things you’ve learned in other places should translate well into Renoise.

Renoise will definitely not limit your potential. While it seems like a lot of Renoise users use it for faster drum and bass electronic type production, Renoise is by far the most versatile DAW I’ve ever seen. The possibilities are absolutely endless with the program, it even works well for live recording. If I could only use one music program for the rest of my life, I would choose Renoise without thinking about it. Don’t worry about Renoise limiting you. It does not limit the user at all, if you understand how to technically use it (which admittedly can be more difficult than some other DAWs) the only limit to what you can do with the software is your own creativity.

Unfortunately, I don’t know anything about soundcloud, so I can’t really help you with that question. The reason the forums are kind of quiet is something I also don’t have the answer to. I’ve been using Renoise for years and I’ve just now signed up for this forum, so maybe it’s a publicity thing. I would try your luck at other music production forums and sites.

Mixing is an art that can take many years to perfect. Even after many years there is always something to learn.
What speakers are you using? Is your room acoustically treated? Have you checked for phase issues? What headphones are you using too? They may be coloring the sound.
Bass is probably the trickiest to get right. Good advice above.
A little trick i have been playing around with lately for widening is to duplicate a sound, pan both left and right respectively (the further the wider) and apply a subtle effect such as a very minor delay or chorus on one of them.

  1. Tips for uploading to soundcloud? Soundcloud seems to make my final track render quiet and the quality seems a lot less than I had in Renoise?

Soundcloud still streams in relatively low audio quality. This usually affects songs with high frequencies the most (more information is lost due to encoding). WIth some tracks I’ve experienced this to be very noticeable, with others, no so much.

Not much you can do about it really - mention it in the description and/or stick a downloadable version up there (downloads can be uncompressed wav, for example). Because, although producing tracks to make them sound better at low bitrates is possible, this is the year 2016 not 2006.

As for the mixing, yes you probably need to apply a bit of harmonic distortion to lift the lower end into the audible spectrum. This is essentially how the exciter works, but for pure bass signals perhaps a better option would be to find a good pitch-shifting plugin and then transpose the whole bass part an octave above and mix it subtly back into the original signal. Use a send track for the pitch-shifting and you can apply the effect to any track you’d want.

I agree with dymck1. Trackers are powerful tools for composition.
Renoise offers that tracker side, plus all the extras included on a conventional daw.

Hello, this is my first post, I’m somewhat new to renoise, did a little on and off. Although I feel the need to ask some questions for guidance.

  1. I’m in the middle of working on my 2nd song, and after my first song and now testing on different speakers/ headphones/ earbuds, My songs seem to sound different on each of these, which is really frustrating. Here is what I have currently, specifically when the low notes hit on my main synth sound, you can’t even hear them on speakers, headphones it sounds fine as far as I can tell. I’ve tried putting a maximizer then just turn up the volume once the low notes hit, but this solution seems kinda duck-tapey.

It’s normal, you need to improve the mixdown and it’s really hard but with perseverance and common sense, you will be able to do it.

If it’s not the case, you should buy monitor speakers. You need to have a reliable sound system.

Be careful with the maximizer, it’s not because you raise the volume, that it will sound better.

Another thing is to check the demo songs in Renoise and learn from them.

  1. Mixing. What are the essentials in renoise for mixing, what should I be familiar with to mix well? (track dsps, effects, compressors?)

Honestly, just by using a EQ and Compressor, you should achieve a good result. I don’t like the Renoise compressor, I’m more using the Waves C1 but the Renoise EQ is really nice.

  1. Will renoise limit my potential? I hope I don’t offend anyone with this one, I’ve never used a different DAW, but it seems like a lot of people use ableton/fl studio. But renoise feels really good and I love the workflow, feels like im programming but with music. Which leads me to my next question…

My motto is: the only limit is yourself

Making good quality music takes time and personally I’m far from it. :slight_smile:

Check this article:https://medium.com/the-business-of-living/why-quantity-should-be-your-priority-3bc2b16fe3f5#.7udd54dvx

  1. Where is everybody? Renoise is a really cool DAW as far as I can tell … how is the community so … small? Unfortunately this means a lot less tutorials/blogs/etc about it.

We are here ! If you check well this forum, you should find all the answers of your questions. And in Youtube, there is more and more tutorials.

  1. Tips for uploading to soundcloud? Soundcloud seems to make my final track render quiet and the quality seems a lot less than I had in Renoise? I have a feeling this has to do with mixing as well.

Already answered by Danoise.

Thanks guys! I appreciate it much.

Good luck! Music production is a long and exciting journey. Have fun !

Soundcloud still streams in relatively low audio quality. This usually affects songs with high frequencies the most (more information is lost due to encoding). WIth some tracks I’ve experienced this to be very noticeable, with others, no so much.

Not much you can do about it really - mention it in the description and/or stick a downloadable version up there (downloads can be uncompressed wav, for example). Because, although producing tracks to make them sound better at low bitrates is possible, this is the year 2016 not 2006.

As for the mixing, yes you probably need to apply a bit of harmonic distortion to lift the lower end into the audible spectrum. This is essentially how the exciter works, but for pure bass signals perhaps a better option would be to find a good pitch-shifting plugin and then transpose the whole bass part an octave above and mix it subtly back into the original signal. Use a send track for the pitch-shifting and you can apply the effect to any track you’d want.

First off, thanks everybody for the loaded replies.

So say I do want to produce tracks to sound better at low bitrates, what’s the first step in the direction of doing so? I’d like to release on soundcloud as it’s decently popular and lets new artists post tracks. Does soundcloud have a bad rep around the production community? I guess that’s pretty disappointing.

Mixing is an art that can take many years to perfect. Even after many years there is always something to learn.
What speakers are you using? Is your room acoustically treated? Have you checked for phase issues? What headphones are you using too? They may be coloring the sound.
Bass is probably the trickiest to get right. Good advice above.
A little trick i have been playing around with lately for widening is to duplicate a sound, pan both left and right respectively (the further the wider) and apply a subtle effect such as a very minor delay or chorus on one of them.

These are the headphones I’m using.

Probably not the greatest… Natural follow-up question- Is there a type of headset I can get that will be the best for mixing? If there is, can you explain why they are better than just any random pair of headphones, I just want to be sure I understand the difference, thanks.

Room not treated or anything, just my house office, disregard that for now I guess.

Does soundcloud have a bad rep around the production community?

The way I see it - no matter what platform you end up releasing on, you’re probably going to continue using soundcloud to promote your music :slight_smile:

But embracing the lower bitrate, hmm… a simplesawsynth like the song you posted isrich in harmonics and an absolute worst case for any encoder!!Your sound will seem to magically improve as you add more layers, a beat, some effects…so just go ahead and make some noise :slight_smile:

As for headphones: I only use them for reference and late night sessions where I don’t want to wake up my neighbors. You can use them to pick up all the little details, but they’re mostly shit for mixing - just like studio monitors are often crappy for actual music listening! This is all down to the fact that, when mixing, you want to strip your sound naked, not try to make it sound “nice”.

There are many headphones made specifically for mixing. All of these are designed for audio with the producer/engineer in mind.

You will notice the difference.

Good ones will have a broad range and give a good representation of the sound without colouring it (in particular bass).

It won’t hide flaws and this will make it easier to have better judgement mixing and correcting problems.

They are impartial compared to a commercial set of headphones, which tend to boost frequencies to make “it sound better” for the user. This does not help with mixing. In fact it makes it harder. Even worse if they are cheaper. You will always have problems.

Headphones are very useful for detecting phase issues and unwanted pops and clicks etc. The ones you have I assume will not have a very good range and will also make it harder to detect lower frequencies too.

You can get a reasonable set of cans under $100 and can go up by the $1000’s much as a lot of audio equipment (The higher you go, generally the better quality). Though I would suggest $200-$300 (Au - arse end of the world rate).

They are investment in your sound.

Some notable brands are AKG, Sennheiser etc. Do a little research, it will help you to make a better decision and I think it is worth knowing about. Go into a music shop and try some out with a reference track that you know on your phone. I have also used a frequency generator for testing tones (which there are phone apps for), which was a quick way of testing range without having to look for specs.

Good headphones are an indispensable asset to any studio, home or professional. I for one firmly recommend the investment :walkman:

How much do you want to spend on your music? How much is it worth it to you?

Many people mix only on headphones alone too, though I think it is easier with a good set of monitor speakers and acoustic treatment. Monitors are very helpful for stereo balancing (which can be difficult with headphones alone). The sound is naturally different in headphones, being fed into the ears as opposed to waves traveling through air to meet our ears. These waves also bounce around a room and dependent of it’s size/shape/surface, can create an unwanted ringing or reverb that will affect how you hear any sound in the space. Acoustic treatment aims to sort of sculpt the sound to be as flat as possible. Combined with the speakers and cans you will have the environment to best monitor and assess your audio critically, which is a good thing. :wink: Again, you will notice the difference.

This can be expensive or you can make your own, or combination of both as I am doing. There are quite a few resources on the net, if you are interested in DIY.

Some things that may help…

Monitor-Placement.gif

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar02/articles/monitors.asp

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan07/articles/mixingheadphones.htm

http://ehomerecordingstudio.com/home-recording-studio-essentials/

Hello, this is my first post, I’m somewhat new to renoise, did a little on and off. Although I feel the need to ask some questions for guidance.

  1. I’m in the middle of working on my 2nd song, and after my first song and now testing on different speakers/ headphones/ earbuds, My songs seem to sound different on each of these, which is really frustrating. Here is what I have currently, specifically when the low notes hit on my main synth sound, you can’t even hear them on speakers, headphones it sounds fine as far as I can tell. I’ve tried putting a maximizer then just turn up the volume once the low notes hit, but this solution seems kinda duck-tapey.

  2. Mixing. What are the essentials in renoise for mixing, what should I be familiar with to mix well? (track dsps, effects, compressors?)

  3. Will renoise limit my potential? I hope I don’t offend anyone with this one, I’ve never used a different DAW, but it seems like a lot of people use ableton/fl studio. But renoise feels really good and I love the workflow, feels like im programming but with music. Which leads me to my next question…

  4. Where is everybody? Renoise is a really cool DAW as far as I can tell … how is the community so … small? Unfortunately this means a lot less tutorials/blogs/etc about it.

  5. Tips for uploading to soundcloud? Soundcloud seems to make my final track render quiet and the quality seems a lot less than I had in Renoise? I have a feeling this has to do with mixing as well.

Thanks guys! I appreciate it much.

  1. Unable to listen to your file, it says it is gone, but just lower your volume a whole bunch, and start from there

  2. Volume and pan, anybody that tells you anything else is needed for a good mix i would be wary of, once you have a good mix you can enhance it with effects/dynamics/EQ/automation, but you can not get a good mix with these things, just volume and pan.

  3. No limitations really, you may lack the current buzzword here and there, and a lot of workflow is better in other software, but there are normally ways around that.

  4. Community is small because it is a tracker, trackers are not very popular since their heyday, Renoise has no other way to work but tracking, it is niche and will remain niche while it is just a tracker, and at this late stage in the game it is doubtful it will be anything more than a tracker.

  5. Best tip for Soundcloud is avoid it like the plague, it very quickly turned from a great way to promote to ‘i’ll suck yours, if you suck mine’ community that the generalist public have little to no interest in, and their compression has always been crappy.

^ Some good tips.
It definitely differs from most Daws, though personally my workflow has improved since using renoise.
Though i don’t doubt that individual results may vary.
Being that it is very keyboard driven and there are many shortcuts that imo help to not stifle the crestive process, their is a learning curve. If the op puts the time in, I think there is much you ccan get from it. I do however, agree with your points.
Not a fan of soundcloud? What can you recommend, bandcamp, I hear this etc?
I think it can be good to get your stuff out there, once you have something you wish to share.

I’ve learned a lot from the Recording Revolution Website. While I do not care for the actual music, the information has been well-presented and very useful.

Here’s an example:http://therecordingrevolution.com/2016/03/17/the-case-for-mixing-with-eq-and-compression-on-your-mix-buss/

Basically, for your mixes you need focus on EQ and compression. Compression is essentially automated volume control; EQ is key for making sure each instrument has the proper room to be heard.

You might want to check your mixes in mono as well to see that it still sounds good. If you can get the instruments coming through clearly in mono they should sound great in stereo (though of course ear-check that as well).

Something I’ve been learning the hard way is that the underlying tracks need to sound good on their own. That is, it is very hard to fix up a poor vocal take or a weak or (too fat) bass sound.

As for getting decent monitors, headphones, etc: Get as good as you can reasonably afford, but don’t freak out about it. What counts is that you know the sound they are providing. Comparing your mixes against reference tracks can help guide your ears.

http://www.homestudiocorner.com/use-a-reference-track-while-mixing/

Soundcloud: They keep changing stuff in a frantic bid to make money, so I don’t know what the long-tern will be, but many other sites seem to have built-in handling to render Soundcloud links. So, for example, you can put something up on Soundcloud then post links on Twitter, G+, Ello, etc and they automagically convert the link to the embedded player. Handy when trying to spread the word.

I use Soundcloud as one place to get exposure. ReverbNation, Hearthis.at, Bandcamp, logamp.comare among the other sites I use.

Good advice Neurogami.
Though i must say reverbnation’s emails are bit bergggh.
I second the recording revolution, I also get a lot out of advice by Ian Sheppard, Fab Dupont, Mixbus tv, audio tuts and a few others than I can’t recall at present.
Good advice Neurogami.
Though i must say reverbnation’s emails are bit bergggh.
I second the recording revolution, I also get a lot out of advice by Ian Sheppard, Fab Dupont, Mixbus tv, audio tuts and a few others than I can’t recall at present.

I have a special email filter to shuffle off the ReverbNation mail. It’s pretty much all up-sell hustling.

Hi. Wanted to chime in for your original first question.

It has been something that had riddled me quite a bit now and then. Own stuff with similliar “smooth” low notes = sound swallowed on crap speakers, other artists stuff = just as smooth, but still audible on the same speakers.

The solution is clever mixing/sound design. The sounds are very close to sinewaves, or base freq with only low harmonics. When the crap speakers can’t play back these frequencies, you’ll hear nothing or close to nothing. The problem is even more existent with very low and dull bass notes, like subbasses.

You will need to add harmics to your sounds in one way or another. If you care to have your stuff sound good on i.e. smartphones. Exciters can not only make the high end sound more sharp and intense, but also add harmonics to bass. Other ways include subtle overdrive/saturation, choosing a sound with harmonics to begin with, layering up stuff, or even ultra brute force like a parallel chain with distortion and then strong filter and eq to make it more subtle. It is an art to master these techniques, and be able to enhance dull sounds without them seemingly sound all too very different from the basic idea of the sound. It is a lot about psychoaccoustics also. Like you can have a sine subbass, and one with fizzly harmonics, and not notice a difference at first, just the one without harmonics gives a bit more suffocating impression at high volume, but will be inaudible on cheap bassless speakers while the other one will still shine through and sound more round and pleasant somehow. And you need to take care with stuff you add or alter, that the sound is still percieved as a “one thing” and not like 2 or more sounds happening at the same time. The harmonics can also be used (manipulated) to give impression of depth or room for low bass frequencies, without the actual bass freqs being altered.

I always have on my master channel close to the very end…a strong highpass filter which is disabled most of the time, butterworth n4 or even n8 works good. For judging how the mix sounds without bass. I just toggle it on/off and listen for the difference, on good headphones - I find this works better than cheap speakers. Cutoff is like 120 up to 280 hz. Also try listening to some tunes by professional artists through such a highpass filter.

Hi. Wanted to chime in for your original first question.

It has been something that had riddled me quite a bit now and then. Own stuff with similliar “smooth” low notes = sound swallowed on crap speakers, other artists stuff = just as smooth, but still audible on the same speakers.

The solution is clever mixing/sound design. The sounds are very close to sinewaves, or base freq with only low harmonics. When the crap speakers can’t play back these frequencies, you’ll hear nothing or close to nothing. The problem is even more existent with very low and dull bass notes, like subbasses.

When you say Harmonics, do you mean how full the sound is, I guess? Do you have any examples or renoise projects that differentiate good optimal sounds vs ones that aren’t? This is the first mention I’ve seen of “harmonics”, it seems very important to having a good mix, and was hoping you could explain it in a more practical way I could understand if possible. I feel like such a noob, but I really want to understand further :unsure:

You will need to add harmics to your sounds in one way or another. If you care to have your stuff sound good on i.e. smartphones. Exciters can not only make the high end sound more sharp and intense, but also add harmonics to bass. Other ways include subtle overdrive/saturation, choosing a sound with harmonics to begin with, layering up stuff, or even ultra brute force like a parallel chain with distortion and then strong filter and eq to make it more subtle. It is an art to master these techniques, and be able to enhance dull sounds without them seemingly sound all too very different from the basic idea of the sound. It is a lot about psychoaccoustics also. Like you can have a sine subbass, and one with fizzly harmonics, and not notice a difference at first, just the one without harmonics gives a bit more suffocating impression at high volume, but will be inaudible on cheap bassless speakers while the other one will still shine through and sound more round and pleasant somehow. And you need to take care with stuff you add or alter, that the sound is still percieved as a “one thing” and not like 2 or more sounds happening at the same time. The harmonics can also be used (manipulated) to give impression of depth or room for low bass frequencies, without the actual bass freqs being altered.

So it might be better to just pick good samples to begin with that will sound good, then compress down if needed? Seems like it may be harder to work a sound up to sound good. Could this be done going into the sampler and messing with waveforms and modulation? or better done with track dsp effects?

I always have on my master channel close to the very end…a strong highpass filter which is disabled most of the time, butterworth n4 or even n8 works good. For judging how the mix sounds without bass. I just toggle it on/off and listen for the difference, on good headphones - I find this works better than cheap speakers. Cutoff is like 120 up to 280 hz. Also try listening to some tunes by professional artists through such a highpass filter.

Good idea on comparing to a professional artist … speaking of Hz, is there an optimal hz range to work within for the best sound, from a general perspective I guess.

Thanks for replying, sorry if my questions are so noob, just trying to climb the learning ladder. :slight_smile:

Oh, I can’t write down everything I’ve learnt so far for you now. I am like a struggler myself, no pro or like that. Too much stuff going on, audio engineering is a field with lots of theory and also experimentation and subjectivity involved. And fine ears, that need to be trained.

I say, look vaguely into fourier theory a little tiny bit (every sound can be seen as composed out of sines added together), and then look into the spectrum view, probe it with sine waves, noises, filtered noises, and random sounds. And look into fourier series of basic waveforms plus watching what is going on with other sounds, in spectrum analyser and scope, also when filters and eqs are acting, to get vague ideas what harmonics are. Then you get ideas of what frequency and harmonic are meaning. But don’t take the theory all too serious, ears are what serves the last, minds are blown by music via the ears and not math or textbooks.

You can just try out effects, overdrives, distortions, exiters, and play around with fine ears and maybe halfway decent headphones. And of course use google or whatever to find a real big amount of informations about all of this, some good, some bad or trivial, some stuff just bringing up new search terms, and you soak all of it until you get your own understandings of it or found conventions other people are claiming to follow. Or pay someone to teach you the condensed, whatever. It will take time to master audio tools, like it will for any other tool or discipline.

It is very interesting, you have a kind of style that reminds me of someone I like very much. Well, it reminds me a very lot. It is like budding storytelling, very unabashed, smacking images into the face of the listener, and then running away blatantly and almost ashamed of it - and would need kind of story-tellers-experience with regards of the structure, and more patience with the individual ideas in it, to make something compelling out of it - that is different and beautiful, different from all the other stuff going on. It could lead into both directions, superfiscialised like in dance music, or deepened and exaggerated as one might then call it art then, but is neither yet. Keep on working out on this, just don’t let yourself be trolled for being a noob. It takes a lot of time and dedication to develop an unique style and the nessicary technical skills, I believe.

It is very interesting, you have a kind of style that reminds me of someone I like very much. Well, it reminds me a very lot. It is like budding storytelling, very unabashed, smacking images into the face of the listener, and then running away blatantly and almost ashamed of it - and would need kind of story-tellers-experience with regards of the structure, and more patience with the individual ideas in it, to make something compelling out of it - that is different and beautiful, different from all the other stuff going on. It could lead into both directions, superfiscialised like in dance music, or deepened and exaggerated as one might then call it art then, but is neither yet. Keep on working out on this, just don’t let yourself be trolled for being a noob. It takes a lot of time and dedication to develop an unique style and the nessicary technical skills, I believe.

Wow, that was super interesting to read! Made my day. Not sure if it’s what you meant but, I have a belief that the best music is the music you can visualize your own “mental music video”, but much more beautiful and intense. I always tell people that and some think I’m weird, But every single song that I have really loved I can imagine it so vividly, and everything is on point with the music. I want to make music like that someday :badteeth:I’d like to make Dance type music but who knows, experimenting with stuff is really ridiculously fun lol.

Anyways, thanks for that, now time to experiment with the technical stuff.