I completely missed this topic like a spacker and started one of my own, I’ve included a mockup of how zooming could be represented visually:
I dont like the soom thingy at all. They main thing i like about tracking is that you have a great overview and can see and edit everything to pinpoint precission. To be able to set notes in the improved grid id rather have another “column” like Volume, Panning, Effect, columns.
If you want to put more than one note/offnote within a line it would be easier just to add another notecolumn or write it in another track. If this really feels like a big issue the “delaycolumn” could be bound to the notecolumn … so if you add a notecolumn you’ll automaticly add a delaycolumn as well.
I dont see myself ever using a zoom function. Although i like the fact that you want to improve the accuracy of things.
On the other hand… they only way i would use a zoom function would be if. Tracks could be “Grouped” and visualized as blocks in an ‘arrenger’ these blocks could would consist of tracks or patterns. Tracks/patterns could vary in “resolution” but still play in the same speed/BPM.
So if i made a bassline with a lot of groove in a few tracks i could group it and add it to the arranger.
This means the arranger would be much usable. You dubble click an a “track” in the arranger to open up the groups/patterns/tracks. for editing.
I could really see Renoise having an Arranger/Sequencer were your songs actually were consisting of many “blocks” wich were editable like before, but you could play many blocks with varying “line-resolution”.
It would be like playing 1 Drum track at 140 BPM, Speed 6. and playing maybe a nice melody at high line-resolution 140BPM, SPeed 1 in the same time.
You could open up the Drum Group and see a pattern of maybe 5 tracks with 64 lines.
You could upen up the high line resolution melody group and see a pattern with 2 tracks but with 64 x 256 lines or whatever.
It doesnt really matter, becouse in the arranger thay would fit together as they are actually playing at the same BPM, but one has more lines in the same ammount of time and is more accurate.
To claryfy things to my previous post.
Imagine an arranger like Cubase / Reason or whatever. Double click on a block and you open a pattern.
The “speed” indicator could still be within the program but bound specifically to these blocks rather than a global value.
I would be more comfortable making smaller patterns with less tracks, ONLY for 1 or a couple of instruments. Then add this Pattern to an arranger. This means you will be allowed to play many patterns simultaneously. They are smaller and hold less information … they can be seen as group of tracks… Some of these patterns play have a high resolution but some have a lower. Depending on how accurate you want to be for that particular part. Some patterns play at speed 1 some at 3, some at 6. This way people can have both an arranger and improved accuracy for some parts.
This would certanly change the way people track. But it would still be the same. You track in the same way. You just make patterns with specific inforamtion “drums” “bassline” “appregio” “Synths” “Piano Melody”. you can stack em and play them all simultaneously in the arranger.
I think most readily assume that each such block will have that, since most sequencers have independent quantize and edit resolutions for midi parts.
Think of zoom more like when you’ve already set the resolution limit for your clip (i.e. 64ths), you also have the option to zoom out to get an overview, but you can’t zoom further in than 64ths, unless you change the clip’s limit.
Was reading through this thread cuz a bit and i can see it dates back since 2003. Strange that no improvement in this matter have been made since then.
As I understand the main issue is people wanting better line resolution for more precise editing. I agree that 6 ticks per line is not nearly enough. As I suggested in another thread I think just a multiplier value is enough next to BPM, and Speed.
Some people like the zoom but i have to point out again that i don’t like it, mainly becouse i’m worried there will be hidden values i can’t see unless i zoom that part. And i don’t want to miss out on something if choose not to use it, becouse it doesnt fit my workflow/workstyle. Effect commands or a special delay track would be preffered.
BPM: 125
Speed:6
Multiplier: 1-6
The multiplier is setting ticks per line and at setting 1-6 overriding normal tick resolution.
Some Examples:
At multiplier 0: No changes in ticks per line. Settings inherited from speed.
At multiplier/ticksetting 1: 8 ticks at speed 3 or 16 ticks at speed 6
At multiplier/ticksetting 2: 16 ticks at speed 3 or 32 ticks at speed 6
At multiplier/ticksetting 4: 32 ticks at speed 3 or 64 ticks at speed 6
At multiplier/ticksetting 5: 64 ticks at speed 3 or 128 ticks at speed 6
At multiplier/ticksetting 6: 128 ticks at speed 3 or 256 ticks at speed 6
Would this work?
This would eliminate the need for a zoom function but still give you as high accuracy as you want. Usually i use speed 6 when making songs, but when i to play and stop a note between lines without using delay command i use speed 3. and sometimes even speed 1 for special parts… with this option you will have a maximum of of 64 ticks at speed 1.
Maybe it’s possible to have a resolution value per track instead of a global value, if all was multiplied by 2.
you could have one track with 64 ticks per line and one with 256 and one with 16. Since no zoom function would be needed either maybe there’s room for this?
This setting should be able to be set using effect commands as well. This wouldnt change much to the normal way of tracking and still allow costumized resolution depending on need.
The delay command in pan and volume column could be reprogrammed to work as a it’s delaying percentage of a line instead of a certain number of ticks. The same goes for effect column, since resolution will change based on speed setting you would want to be sure teh delay would be just as much per line no matter what speed or resolution you set.
I would like you to introduce a special delay column as well. Thas would be enough for pinpointing delay etc.
/ cheers
I like that idea.
You can zoom already in Renoise. I am sure most of you do it already anyway…
Example…
-
Change Speed from 6 to 3
-
CTRL+,
-
Change ‘highlight every xx lines’ from 4 to 8
That works the same as zoom.
It is not scaleable and you can resize and hide stuff, but it works.
the zoom on one note is not good idea i think it will be hell to compose!!
Take the example of the “triolet” (i don t know the name in english)
it sounds like this tatoo toota tatoo toota (the base rythm of irish music)
it’s really easy to compose on x2 grid but hell on zommed notes! you have to open the submenu of each note!
i see the x2 zoom like this
00 C-401
00’ … …
01 … …
01’ C-401
02 … …
etc…
the sequencer of the yamaha rs7000 or rm1x is really great for this
I think this could work well as a lightweight implementation of this feature, without zoom:
Increase the resolution of the delay column and add an additional note end/length column. The latter can work in conjunction with “note off” for notes that end before the next line.
Example:
C-400 56 16 32 … …
^…^…^…^…^
note vol del end effect column
For several notes per line, just add more notecolumns, like this:
C-400 56 16 23 … … | E-400 52 24 30 … …
It can get messy for complex arrangements, but you would at least have all the information about the notes visible at all times, unlike a zoom implementation.
ok i didnt read all the posts, just a few, but i just wondered why ur making it THAT complicated.
I think its quite simple to manage it:
A doubleclick on a note in the pattern editor opens the Sub-Tick Pattern. After some stuff is typed in, the note become a Sqare around itself. If you hover the mouse over the squared Note, you can see/edit the Subtick Notes.
I made a picture to illustrate it:
Which commands work/not work in the subtick pattern is not my business its yours 
Imho there should only the non-critical effects work, so less hazzle with it.
I thought play/stop/loop buttons for this subpattern should be available aswell.
Maybe also a special option -[Show SubPattern by hovering with the mouse [on/off]-
cheers
I think one of the simplest and most intuitive ways to display more resolution would be to simply have a global zoom slider at the side of the pattern, something like
as you see in some other apps.
That’s it. Zooming in would let you see more lines. Zooming out perhaps even a whole long pattern.
And what would make the display of lines nicer would be highlighting of certain lines and “sub lines”. This highlighting would work according to the specified quantize, which could be defined for every track independently. Something I suggested a while ago.
As a matter of fact lines could either be highlighted according to quantize or shown according to quantize, so that you would only see the lines that you need. A concept very similar to the one in Cubase’s “Drum Editor”, look:
Just turn that picture vertically and replace the “diamonds” with C-4, D#4, …
As you see notes can still be anywhere, quantize just helps for the input of notes and for an organized display.
Here’s a quick drawing of how the quantize could be displayed in Renoise:
This is the “hide not needed lines” version. But you could represent quantize also by highlighting certain lines. That one may look nicer…
EDIT1: Just in case someone missed my point with this quantize&speed: My point is that quantize could be very hepful in presenting an organized display when zooming in/out. If you needed a very fine resolution then you’d just select a very fine quantize for that track and zoom in. Then there could always be a reminder (a symbol/some color) that there are some “hidden” notes when you’re zoomed out. But just a reminder, no extra windows, buttons and whatnot… keep it simple.
EDIT2: Added two lines to the picture. These lines are the “reminders”, aka: “you have to zoom in there to see more notes”. Perhaps clicking on a line could also trigger a zoom in. The lines was just a quick idea… the “reminders” could actually look very different.
UPDATE: I don’t think the “reminders” are cool anymore. 
Instead, I’d prefer if the zoomed-out notes were just stacked together, like in Aodix, look:
It makes sense to me, even if it may not look very ‘pretty’. You can at least see approximately how many notes there are and where they are located.
Hey since this brainstorming session is 4 years old and I’d really like to join this conversation, are there any news from the developers about this feature?
edit: meaning, are there still some known problems to be solved before this could be implemented?
Yeah, this is sorta how I’d imagine it as well. With keyboard shortcuts for +/- zoom… and it would be nice if zoom level could be stored into layout presets, so you could access your most useful zoom levels instantly.
real cool idea ermi! i ll vote for this!!
one suggestion, perhaps differing the main issue: there should be a switch for the pattern speed/bpm whether it should affect the synced vst/vsti-s or not. or is there any, and i’m just blind?
n
Song Settings tab → “VST tempo”
Also an additional suggestion on this matter. Perhaps there could be a switch that would divide the tempo sent to the plug-ins and midi equipment by 2 and 4…
i just reviewed this thread, and i think i was sort of missing the point before.
at this point, the way that i understand this would work, is that the ‘speed’ setting would completely disappear and become the ‘zoom’ setting. this is because ‘speed’ in renoise is the number of ticks per row, and in the new paradigm, there is no temporal significance to a ‘line’.
pattern rows would be numbered by beat and rows in between as fractions(decimals) of beats.
since retrigger and delay effects would have to be rethought, could they just be expressed in fractional terms. ie: 0e14 = 1/4th of a beat 0e5f = 5/16ths etc.
with only a single digit to work with for the pattern retrigger command that would be complicated. i suppose it could just have it’s numerator value set to 1. wow, so many gotchas.
this would be a completely different program.
maybe retrigger effect commands and delay would become irrelevant. would be too bad. it’s kind of nice being able to use them instead of having to plot out ever drill hit-by-hit.
Updated my previous post with a picture of ‘zoomed out’ notes in Aodix:
It seems like a nice solution to me. I think it’s better than if all the zoomed out notes were completely hidden. (Maybe it’s been discussed before, I just came across Aodix…)