Add buzz styled sequencing to Renoise

Ideas & suggestions
82

It’s “more THAN”, not “more then”.
I know how to use the Pattern Matrix. It is a pain in the ass. Loads of USELESS comments here, by people who have come into this thread and contributed nothing of any interest, and only say, effectively “Stop talking about this”… Pathetic.

Not ONE person can even make a simple video of HOW they use the Pattern Matrix, even though they claim it’s wonderful, shouldn’t be talked about, and shouldn’t be replaced by the BSE. This is, as I say, like a religious cult, so I don’t expect meaningful, intelligent discussion from cult members.

Of course it makes sense. I made several videos showing both my Pattern Matrix problems, and why the BSE is better. I was able to back up my hypothesis with EVIDENCE. That’s how debating works.

Instead we have what, three posts on this very page, which are embarrassing to those who wrote them - no substance, no discussion about the topic, just “Please stop talking about this”. Why did those people even visit this thread? Because you want to silence debate, that’s why.

It is very sad how people will cling to something they know isn’t very good, at any cost, rather than even THINK about something different, which would improve it. Very sad indeed…

THIS is the point of this thread - careful, this probably scares you:

Would you like to discuss HOW you use the Pattern Matrix, carmazine? Otherwise, stop trying to ‘poison the well’ of this thread…

Perhaps you can all explain just HOW you can recognise individual patterns in the PM, purely by the little block that’s supposed to represent the pattern. How do you know which pattern is which, when you have ten different drum tracks, all of which look practically the same in the PM, because they hardly differ?

Oh wait, that’s getting a bit too practical, better not talk about that…

83

Let me first say that I have never tried buzz extensively. Since the Buzz sequencer is being compared to the PM here, I guess that this thread wants to point out that the buzz sequencer should be considered a better model for arranging/overview, right? I agree that arranging could be improved a lot in Renoise. The most notable drawbacks I find in the PM is that slots doesn’t tell you anything (nearly) about what is happening in the song at a particular place. Also, it won’t help you with a common task like syncing the end of a rise/sweep effect to the start of a new pattern, as you might expect from an arranger.

My first impression (right or wrong) is that I’d rather see Renoise go a different way than what is proposed in this thread - i e traditional horizontal timeline with ‘midi clips’ and samples, as seen in FL Studio and many other softwares. This model has proved being blazingly fast and productive to work with, especially for quickly laying out a song structure. Would the Buzz model be better than a traditional arranger? (or perhaps I’ve misunderstood the purpose of what is being described here)

84

Haha… good one!

Anyway, sorry, I don’t want to get in the way of your ranting, I have cult duties to attend to… all hail the the jabbanoise :D

85

This is without any relation to what I wrote, I actually had to look twice if this addresses me at all.

Who again seeks to silence others?

You said (quote) “We’re still all waiting”.
Which is simply FALSE because I know at least one counter example - me. So (quote):“No, we aren’t.”

I don’t mind anybody voicing his opinions, but I do mind when people speak for me. You can’t speak for me, and I ask you to stop it. Thanks. I do this regardless of opinions.

86

knows about existence of Renoise since 2003
don’t have any finished tracks
waste hours writing insulting posts
talks about being practical

87

Wow, so you’re that sensitive that you read my words “We’re still all waiting” and then felt you had to waste time on this thread telling everyone that you in particular aren’t waiting?

Yet you have nothing to offer to the discussion, re the thread TITLE. Nothing to say about the pattern matrix?

LOL. “Don’t have any finished tracks”. Hilarious. Better to leave a track at one minute than just repeat something not very good, over and over, for ten minutes…

“waste hours writing insulting posts”. Oh, you mean I actually want to DISCUSS aspects of the user interface, which you apparently don’t even understand, or can’t seem to elaborate on?

Yet another useless post from an ‘interloper’. Do you want to discuss the merits of the pattern matrix over the BSE? Otherwise, why are you posting on this thread?

The Buzz sequencer is similar to almost all other DAWs, apart from Renoise, inasmuch as a tracker can be similar to a non-tracker. FL Studio is a good model to use as well, either would be a HUGE improvement on the pattern matrix.
If you had an FL Studio type playlist, it would essentially be a Buzz sequence editor but horizontal, as far as I can see, which would be perfectly fine with me. Horizontal or vertical is all the same to me.

88

Strangely, some people seem to be interested in this not very good stuff. Some even pay for it :D

No, I mean you’re writing insulting posts. This answer is some nice example.

You didn’t give us any good reason to prefer BSE either. One minute long video of arranging some retarded house stuff, wow.
Post a full video of making song in Buzz. Let it be breakcore track with 100 different drum patterns. Then, I’ll agree there is something in BSE… maybe :D

89

you all really need to chill the fuck out

90

91

Cool. I’d prefer either the traditional way, or the zoomable pattern (with clips and audio tracks) that has been mocked up before. I guess the latter is similar to the buzz model. It has been discussed previously in this thread among others: Concept: Zoomable Pattern Editor

Anyway. The devs are clearly focused on the instrument part of Renoise at the moment and, I suspect, may be for some time. It’s not according to my or your personal preferences. Not much to do :)

92

I’d be interested in that kind of thing too, even if it’s a program like Buzz that I’ll probably never use much I like to see the process that other artists will go through. That’s also part of the appeal of tracking, all those old mods you can look at where the nuts and bolts of the composition are right there. That being said I’ve done a lot of all gear OHCs and have seen people be freakishly proficient with all kinds of different programs, maybe a clip arranger would make it slightly easier in Renoise, but I don’t think the difference would be that profound. Really, it’s about the ideas in your head and how fast you can get them out, the difference in how much time it takes to-basically-copy and paste something is pretty miniscule compared to getting it out to begin with regardless of what you’re using

Maybe the arranger could be better but for me personally I feel like the pattern editor is the most important thing, things like measure highlight and more surgical select behavior are bigger workflow issues for me…and some basic things that can be done with keys in other programs like swapping instruments, I feel like the advanced pattern editor is much more of a weird hack than the pattern matrix, significantly

93

aodix. zoom-able pattern and modular. best vst tracker ive used. http://rekkerd.org/arguru-software-sets-aodix-v4-free/
RIP Arguru!

94

Careful, engine - some people on here don’t like free discussion and will do anything they can to get a thread closed…

Are you able to edit saved songs using a hex editor, to insert the correct location for VSTs, in Aodix? Otherwise it’s lost the location of plugins and won’t reload songs properly.

Nice try. Maybe I’ll do it after you post up a video of you making a breakcore track with 100 different drum patterns - to anybody with a brain, that would obviously be MUCH easier to do with the Buzz Sequence Editor, than with the Pattern Matrix.

Nobody cares if you like the BSE, you obviously have some sort of problem with THINKING, and with people sharing ideas - go and find another thread, since you have nothing constructive to add to this one. My video shows everything you need to know.

Yes, the differences are that profound. You obviously haven’t used Buzz for any length of time. The video shows it ALL, it isn’t difficult to understand. The pattern matrix prevents you from getting your ideas out, because it is badly designed and not fit for purpose…

I rest my case… Thanks for your input!

95

Definitely worth checkout out the jungle of tools that expand the pattern editor then

96

How many people writing breakcore in Buzz on a regular basis do you know? Vsnares can create complete track in a day or two using Renoise, and seem to have no complaints about PM. He got skills, that’s all.

Okay, this is getting too far. I’ll try to explain all my thoughts in this final post and never again post anything about this topic.

You’ve encountered the problem: can’t delete a block in matrix. How to solve it?
The most efficient way:

  • think “I should probably RTFM”
  • go to tutorials.renoise.com
  • find a chapter about PM
  • read about things it can do
  • find out that you can mute blocks
  • try it
  • whoa, it solved the problem!
  • continue writing music

The way you did it:

  • think “PM sucks”
  • spend time recording a video about it
  • create few topics on Renoise forum insisting devs should spend 100 hours or so changing the whole paradigm of Renoise
  • write countless posts insulting everybody who’s not agree with you

Seriously, this is not the way to go. It’s all about skill, not gear. There is some absolutely fantastic music written in 90s using trackers, even though Fasttracker II, Impulse Tracker and others didn’t have VST, high-quality samples, effects. Not to say I’d use those trackers now, I depend on VST really much, but still…
Arrangers, arpeggiators etc are just tools to make work simpler. They won’t make your music better or more popular or anything, you can do all the same stuff without using them.

Replacing PM by BSE would need some really serious and time-taking rethinking. There will be a lot of users confused by such an update, because it will break the workflow for sure. Many will say it wasn’t a wise decision. When you’ll quote this, please, try to not think about yourself only. There are people on this forum, who really like PM and who really dislike BSE.

You can’t just put a feature in program, it’s not how things work. If you’ll create a topic on some Apple forum and say “Apple doesn’t allow installing iOS on any Android-compatible devices? It’s technicaly possible, dafuq?” or “Why can’t I develop an iOS app using Windows?” you’ll probably sent to hell. They have some good reasons for it, that’s why.
All in all, vacuum cleaner combined with microwave and TV is a bad vacuum cleaner, bad microwave and bad TV. Better leave vacuum cleaner alone.

That’s pretty much all my thoughts. Yet again, I suggest you to choose DAW you’re most comfortable with and learn how to use it despite all its flaws.
I’ve seen guys who spend years downloading dozens of plugins, bitching about unimplemented features, writing thousand posts on forums, yet their music is some bland generic uninteresting shit or doesn’t exist. I didn’t mean you now, just don’t be such a guy.

inb4 problems with thinking, silencing the discussion, strawman arguments etc

97

Correct that I haven’t used Buzz for any length of time and I see no reason to. The arranger seems very similar to other modern DAWs such as FL’s which have already failed to make me think of traditional trackers as antiquated, at least as far as composition is concerned. I could spend a few weeks and try to get more into it but it would be a lot of time wasted learning new keyboard shortcuts, being frustrated by behaviors that are different from Renoise’s(and maybe FL’s considering the arranger), fiddling with the hundreds of machines trying to replace the stock effects I use now…it looks neat, I’ve always liked the modular approach vs mixer tracks, but it’s really not worth the time when I can already sit down and finish something in FL or Renoise in one sitting anyway, it’s not like composing in Renoise is slow by any stretch of the imagination. As I said, something like FL’s playlist with flexible patterns that can be whatever you want would be nice on some levels and wouldn’t have to alter the current workflow, I just don’t see the way it is now as being the thing I’d like to see changed most.

Which video? I think I’ve watched 2 or 3 videos that you have posted, none of them convinced me that Buzz is so much more efficient than Renoise or other trackers. Probably because, again, I’ve seen people do things quickly in many programs, seeing someone throw something together in Buzz really fast isn’t unique. Yes certain operations are faster in Buzz than in traditional trackers, I also believe there are drawbacks to that approach having a less precise overview

You’re talking about copy and paste and cloning and similar operations on existing data, not creating it to begin with. This is already efficient in a tracker, a few key strokes gets the job done. A clip arranger is a near necessity in a piano roll program which separates all your data into different windows, but it’s a solution to a problem that a program like Renoise or Modplug doesn’t really have to begin with

98

NOBODY has posted up a simple video of how they use the Pattern Matrix to do what can be done in Buzz. Because quite simply, it would take ten times as long to do.

You don’t even know how the Buzz Sequence Editor works, so you don’t know what you’re missing, therefore you don’t know what you’re talking about. I, at least, have used BOTH programs, and also asked, over and over, for Pattern Matrix lovers to show me if there is anything I’m missing, that is preventing me from using it as easily as I use the Buzz Sequence Editor.

It would take you FIVE MINUTES to learn how the Buzz Sequence Editor works, from my video, it’s that simple.

It’s no skin off my nose, you can carry on doing things the difficult way, and avoid even trying the easier way, so you can convince yourself that you aren’t wasting loads of time every time you write a song, dealing with the inadequacies of the interface. “a few key strokes gets the job done” indeed…

99

Don’t go buzz style arranger, please!? I watched the videos…
The damn thing looks like Microsoft Excel in the early 90’s. :panic:

100

Duh. Muting the block doesn’t help me, but then, since you can’t even understand how the BSE works, I didn’t expect you to be able comprehend a simple user interface problem.

I showed CLEARLY in my video that I wanted to CHANGE the pattern in the block, not mute it. There is no easy solution, because the Pattern Matrix is a bad design. As simple as that.

In the image below, you can see that none of the pattern sequences’ numbers are anything to do with their POSITION, and thus you never have to go through the ridiculous rigmarole in the video above. The whole concept of ‘aliases’ is wrong, and a mistake, as simple as that.

The fact that SOME people here can’t even understand basic stuff like this (which I’m sure a five year old can work out) speaks volumes…

Oh look - here’s another DAW with clips, and the clips have NAMES, and their position in the timeline is in no way tied a specific point… What a crazy idea! We can’t have something simple, logical, obvious and helpful like that in Renoise! Do you want me to post up screenshots of all the other DAWs so you can see they all use the same method?

Here’s Ableton:

You see? NAMED clips, which you can move wherever you want to, thus your songmaking isn’t hampered by the restrictions of the program.

Here’s Logic Pro:

Just imagine Pattern Matrix-like behaviour being implemented in any of those programs - you write your first drum phrase, and then copy it a few times throughout the song, write a second one, intersperse that throughout the song too, then decide you want to completely change JUST the first drum phrase that you wrote, at the very start of the song. But apparently, because you wrote that phrase at 0:00, if you change it, all the other copies will be changed. Fine, you just want to change THAT one, and leave all the others as they are. You can’t. You have to manually copy and paste what could be ten or twenty copies of it, throughout the song, all over again…

If any of you can’t see this, there really is no hope for you.

101

Pff you really don’t give up do you , of all the examples posted above…esp…the 10 buzz seq. there is nothing that renoise pattern matrix COULD nOT do …
If you are so upset about the AILIASES workflow…simple

DON’T USE THEM AND JUST USE COPY PASTE .