After a week with Renoise, is it time to say goodbye?

How do you even? I’m asking for an extra way to control a function.
Clearly not everyone share that philosophy. Is this a written statement of Renoise dev? All I see is people in this forum. Dead against a feature that no one forces them to use, and would not interfere with their usual habits one single bit.

that’s correct! please see the second paragraph of my post above, which i guess you might have missed as it was edited afterwards.

it’s simply not worth the effort (my opinion ofc) and it’s not just “an extra way to control a function”… it’s an alternative to what is called the “tracker interface” (or more precisely: pattern editor), which happens to be the core and heart of every tracker. the only thing which you gain after dozens of hours of tedious work is something that you can already do since 2001:

ENTER NOTES.

wow. :smiley:

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So it’s worth noting that OP was not asking for a piano roll, and even explicitly mentioned that - do all feature request discussions on this forum end up being about piano roll? OP was mostly just talking about improved user experience.

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So you want concurrent piano roll and tracking controls? Ridiculous.

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not sure how “i suggest to make things better / more accessible / more newbie friendly” would be a feature request. so of course piano roll had to take over.

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I came to tracking very late, after extensive piano roll usage. There are a multitude of piano roll, horizontal time line tools available and few, vanishingly few trackers. Why are you people persisting with something whose core conceit you don’t like? It is beyond foolish. Also, fornicate away accusing me of resenting the potential for change. I came to Renoise after none of the PLETHORA of piano roll led DAWs suited me.

The Roland 606, 707, 808, 909, Elektron Model Cycles and Model Samples, Digitakt, Digitone, Analog Rytm, Analog Keys, Octatrack, Polyend Tracker, Nerdseq Portable, Dietywave M8, 99.9% of modular, the TB303, Roland MC101, MC707, MC303, MC505 ad nauseum all do not have a piano roll. People do not buy these devices and ask for the developer to patch in a piano roll or wind instrument interface. If you do not like the way it is built you don’t buy it.

Also, people have made some of the best electronic music ever conceived without a piano roll holding their hands on the above hardware. I’m not sure Aphex Tqin would be whingeing like this over piano roll.

Frankly, fornicate forth to a different DAW if the very core of Renoise is so problematic. Simple.

Edit: removed swearing.

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Shame he couldn’t elaborate beyond the nebulous and unquantifiable.

You kind of acting like you’re against it :wink:

You do not see the benefit and possibility of an added pianoroll editor. Thats ok. But I do. And as I have mentioned earlier. @toimp have done remarkable work with his Simple Pianoroll tool. However. How tools interact with Renoise is cumbersome at best. I can open the tool with a keyboard shortcut, but not close it with the same. The pattern editor loses focus when I open a tool. As an example: It does not lose focus if I open and close the advanced pattern editor with a shortcut.

This is what I have stated all the time. I don’t want to change anything. I just want the option to open a pianoroll for the track I’m working in. I don’t see why that is ridiculous

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As far as I’m aware, Renoise is developed by one person, and probably not as a full-time job - those with little or no experience in software development may not appreciate how big of a request this is.

And how would one correlate FX lanes with the corresponding MIDI piano roll other than memory or by ear?

I think the topic was essentially about lowering the threshold for new users. Making the Renoise learning curve less logarithmic and more linear. I’m all for that, especially if it’s “easily” implemented and optional.

(For a pianotroll, I would recommend using another DAW. Chances are that you eventually also want to benefit from standard audiotracks/editing, arranging, melodyning and whatnot.)

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Awesome idea, dude! :+1:

Why so aggressive? Closed minded people? I don’t see closed minded people here.
And are you talking about “neutral notions and statements” like you do?

That’s your opinion, no more and no less. But why should someone be afraid if he already owns what he likes? Nobody is forced to use something he doesn’t like, so if the concept iwould get changed there’s still the possibility of using previous versions or another program.

No, it’s not. The truth is that obviously most people are afraid of using a tracker because their comfort zone IS a piano roll. Don’t talk about comfort zones in a distorted way like this, please. :slightly_smiling_face:

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I requested that many times from the Bitwig team! They did not even answer… Still very annoyed about it. Such stubborn. Or maybe it is dunning kruger (of course on their side). Only a tracker view turns any DAW into gold.

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Of course, all the above may be BS …

Yep. 'nuff said.

I am virtually 100% certain we are not going to get a piano roll, let’s exit that discussion and talk about what else can be done for beginners or how to gain more users to secure future development.

While I believe it’s stupid to include a decimal system I am not against it as an option that is asked when running Renoise for the first time if that will gain users, unfortunately these users will waste so many extra keypresses over time as they’ll never bother to learn Hex after, but hey it’s 2021 and the world is crazy.

We could have a pattern editor view for beginners with wide columns, headers, decimal system so there’s zero confusion in that aspect about what is what and then when you click an Advanced button it will show the current stream-lined pattern editor with Hex numbers, that way they can go back and forth and maybe learn that way. Seriously this is not something i want but if it can attract more users then maybe it’s not a complete waste of time?

A PR idea could be to make a Renoise Lite version that is fully functional but has a limited number of tracks that could be given for free with Computer Music magazine or something like that.

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Not allowing export is a big deal even though you can get around it.

On the topic of how to get new users I think a stripped down renoise “lite” that runs on Android or Nintendo switch or something that gets kids into making cool beats for fun would be cool. Basically just the sampler and pattern editor and some stock samples. Peeps love the retro stuff. Once they get used to doings some basic tracking I bet a people would move over to the full version.

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Now whether or not this whole topic is trolling is in a way unimportant, so let’s assume it isn’t. My quick two cents.

As someone maybe has already pointed out, the lone developer (taktik) codes this software more so as a (paid) hobby. What does that mean? One of the things it means is most people won’t understand what that means. I worked out (a long time ago) that the best way of handling Renoise the software is not to expect anything from it when/if you buy it. You get what you get when the (hobby) developer says so (it could be one day from now, 3+ years or never.) If the developer says no, you’ve got whatever you have.

Difficult to do? Maybe, sure, most people when they buy software expect a good interaction with the developer(s) and feel involved, feel as though things are moving with new features. Good ‘ecommerce’ and ‘pushing the software forward’ etc…

I learned not to expect it. In fact I don’t expect that from any software (be it open or closed source.)

The above is your first hurdle (it’s quite an important one.) Any newcomer to Renoise I would give the same advice.

…is it time to say goodbye?

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Yeah, all values could be float simply, ranging from 0-1. And then scaled to 100 or whatever, or 000-999.

Exactly!

ZyTrax starts afresh with an user-friendly approach (no hex numbers, pure plugin-based architecture, inlined automation envelopes, smart automations, zoomable patterns and a simple pattern/orderlist layout).

Easy to use, tracker-inspired music sequencer

Imagine if Renoise could have this user-friendly approach too. Would this make Renoise “less” than a tracker? I don’t think so, IMHO, it would make this great software even better.