Again... Alt&crsr Instead Of Shift&crsr 4 Blockmark

hmm why someone of the devteam / alphatesters said that alt+cursor for marking block isnt possible anymore ? if i press alt + cursor i can browse trough my instruments (doesn’t need this function, snap to nearest instrument is the best thing and numblock + / - do all the rest :) ).

so is it possible to add the mark-block and browse-instrument in the keyconfiguration dialog?

pls pls pls pls :)

i use 1.8 since 9 days if i remember, 6-8 hours dayly and NO, i cant get warm up with shift+cursor for marking block, this combination is not handy.

No sorry, thats not possible. Shift is now hardcoded for all the GUI elements in Renoise as selection key (as it is in the majority of the software). Try selecting in the Sample Editor, Pattern Sequence Editor or Envelope Editors for example.

Belive me, you will get used to it. Just needs a bit of time…

The instrument list keys can be changed. You can find them under:

Global > Instruments > Select Previous/Next Instrument

It would be nice to be able to change the bindings for block selection up/down but personally I think I can just re-adjust to the new method, it will just take a few days and then it will seem normal again.

And now taktik provides the reason why it’s not possible to change the key bindings. I suspected it would be something like that.


Belive me, you will get used to it. Just needs a bit of time…

nope ;( because block copy is alt+f3/f4/f5 for me, so i always have to use the little finger for the shift marker and a half of a millisecond later the thumb for holding down the alt key, it really hurts my left hand.
together with this i switch the instrument accidentally :(

come on taktik, i work together with coders since 15 years, statements like “sorry, its hardcoded” or “sorry its impossible” and" you will used to be after a (long) time" is always (!) the translation for “sorry, I can’t be bothered.”

i believe you that it is easier for you to let the key behavior like it is, but please: i really WORK with renoise and i beef about that really worse thing about 1 time per minute since over a week. 6 hours or more PER DAY.

its anatomically not possible for me te come comfortable with it, otherwise i and some other users here (i’m not the only one which is wailing about that) have to remap also block copy/paste, and learn a new workflow, and that for a really dont needed feature (and why did you hardcoded the blockmarker?? its one of the most used key’s ??? )

please again taktik :) proove your skill and change the hardcopied shift key back to alt key , i think no one is missing that instrumentscoll with alt+crsr.

Then swap the Block operations with Track operations.
Then shift+Fx will do changes for the block and vice versa.

its very very very bad to relearn so much new keybindings, in renoise 1.8 i have to use more the mouse to click back to patterneditor than in 1.5 , and i think the new feature of death-binding all editors with hotkeys is a feature to prevent the user for to much mouse-action.
goal missed ;(

i know i really did not want a impossible thing, to remap those keybindings of alt and shift needs abotu 5-10 minutes for taktik.

very very sad, i really use rn1.8 for current projects, 1.8 is CLEAR better than 1.5, but the workflow is worse :( in last days for big projects i really thought about backswitching to 1.5, ONLY for three keys: hardcoded alt, shift und i cant switch back from all editors to patterneditor with ESC. but those three little things are very annoying.

When I say harcoded, I mean that its not adjustable in the key prefs pane, not that this would be impossible.
This is software. Everything is possible…

Again: the descision to do this was to make Renoise more conform to the OS(es) and other software. Shift is everywhere used for the selection. Try your mailing program or a 3d GFX program, even the text edit fields in highscore tables will behave like that. Thats why we changed that, to make things easier for everyone and especially newbies. You dont have to tell anyone who tries out Renoise the first time how this works, it will just work because he expects that it works this way…

Really, give it a try, you havnt used 1.8 for that long time. I also drove nuts after the Shift + Arrow keys where gone the first weeks, but now would drive nuts if they would be back on the Shift keys. We sometimes have correct errors/quirks from the past, to avoid that this software gets one big mess when adding more and more features.

As Taktik already said keybindings were changed in favor of the mass that expects default behaviour.
Your block copy behaviour is just as expectable in the same way:ctrl-c, ctrl-x, ctrl-v and even ctrl-p.
If you get used to those, you don’t need to worry about sore fingers,

Nooooo! :eek:

To me trackers are not like the majority of software, yet I navigate a familiar tracker much better (as in blindfolded, asleep etc.) than majority of software. I’ve been away from Renoise for a while working intensively with MilkyTracker (hunting bugs, documenting, designing the UI as well as composing) and Renoise has been a beacon there in the horizon, a ridiculously powerful tracker and once the keyboard is configured right, yet so familiar a tool. But now, excited about the new beta, I was setting up the working environment and BAM! “Key not assignable. It is globally used for selections.” Oh no, this can’t be. (Sorry for the drama, but I am really having hard time understanding this.) Before I was advertising Renoise to everybody and thanking the fully customizable keyboard which eliminates unnecessary fights between people who used different trackers before and forum posts like this one right here.

Shift selection and things like Ctrl-X, -C and -V are somewhat standard in majority of software and I use them all the time of course, but for me they don’t belong in my music creation tool. “Majority of software” and my tracker are different worlds. When I track, I don’t think about spreadsheets, writing a report, preparing a presentation, filling a web form or navigating the OS with the mouse broken. The tracker is a sanctuary away from all that. I want to seriously concentrate on writing the music with the UI I learned 11 years ago, with the quirky Shift-arrows navigation and the Shift/Alt/Ctrl-F3/F4/F5 clipboard operations. That’s why I am still using a tracker in the first place, that’s why I’m using Renoise ffs.

Right now I consider myself using two trackers for different purposes, sometimes combined and I think it’s pretty obvious that an identical UI is a serious boost to work flow. Well, not only that I think. Having it otherwise works against the flow. MilkyTracker also has a more standard editing mode but it’s a mode, it’s optional. In fact, it used to be the default one but we were forced to change that in favor of the Ft2-like mode because so many people coming from ProTracker and Fasttracker II were put-off by the Windows-like shortcuts. Even to the degree they’d ditch the software and flame the programmer before even finding out about the other, the would-have-been more familiar edit mode.

Ok, I’ve sat here for way too long already writing this, so I’ll stop now. I’ll be happy to continue the discussion if anybody else has some input. I really, really hope the hardcoded shift could still be softened, loosened and assigned to different functions.

stop bitching, make some music and get used to it.

Yeah, real nice. I just think “getting used to it” will slow “making some music”, especially since I can’t try and totally forget the Shift-arrows shortcuts because I still need them in MilkyTracker.

raina: what you (and some others) should realize is that Milkytracker’s way is the wrong one.

damn… I assume we’re not 80 years old… our brains are still flexible enough to be accustomed to the fact that Renoise has joined the “vast majority of softwares” (i.e.: every software but trackers) for which SHIFT means selection. Seen this way, this should be a good news which removes a problem, instead of creating a new one.

Now there is one program less with which you should take in count the problem of “SHIFT is not selection”

This is pretty strongly put. I bet Triton didn’t see this coming when they designed the Fasttracker keyboard controls. I’m sure they would not have picked the wrong keys if they would have known some others would be declared the right ones.

Of course the issue can be seen every which way, from my angle it looks bad since I do and want to consider trackers separate from the vast majority. Customizable keyboard was the good news which removed many potential debates and problems (maybe there were some in the beginning, I’ve only been here since v1.5.0) and I would be surprised if limiting that freedom didn’t create them. Learning new keys makes it hard to work with different trackers in parallel, especially since you can’t configure the other program like you used to be able with Renoise. I don’t think this is limited to MilkyTracker, it’s just an example. Yes, I have once or twice asked about making the MT keys configurable too but whether or not that’ll ever be realized is actually irrelevant. It’s Renoise that seems to be going backwards here. It’s a limitation if something once configurable is now hardcoded no matter how well justified with the mainstream way or the newbie user friendliness.

Let me get all Dr. Phil here and ask you a couple of questions. How many users here use the the RCtrl key for starting song replay in Renoise? In how many pieces of main stream software you use RCtrl to start playback? I have a feeling the bad boys Enter and Space Bar actually have RCtrl beat there. Should RCtrl then be standardized and limited to a mere modifier key in Renoise? What do you think? Where does it stop? Which “nonstandard” tracker key, when hardcoded to different function, would make you write messages like mine and pvcf’s in desperation?

These are very rational justifications. For making something the default, that is, not forcing you to conform.

I dont get it really :)
Its just a key… last time I tried, I could press shift key just as fast as the alt key… (even faster I think :P)

It’s like driving a car.
You can’t drive two different cars because you have used the same car for 10 years?
Yes… it is a bit unfamiliar the first week… but then it should be ok?

is using SHIFT not for selection which makes trackers so special in your point of view? I hope not: we all say that trackers are special because they let you do something other software cannot, or which you would never think of doing with other software, but amongst these things there is surely not the ability to use SHIFT key for anything else than selection, don’t you think?

here we agree: it’s a limitation. My point is that should not put you in disperation. It’s still your brain and a tracker here…

@ vvoois, bantai, taktik

why did you try to discuss us how we have to like our keybindings?
please let US decide whats better for us.

for me its very hard to press shift+f5 for example, because my little right finger is on the shift key and if i try to press simultan with thumb the f5 or f4 key my hand is simply TO SHORT, and i must bind those in order to have mark and copy block not on different keys :( :( :(

you did not try to find a solution, you simple try to force us to use a uncomfortable solution. (and its STILL a pain to use shift :( )

Your block copy behaviour is just as expectable in the same way:
ctrl-c, ctrl-x, ctrl-v and even ctrl-p.

hmm, ctrl is’nt shift, its a different key, maybe its the same in window’s, but really, i doesnt care, windows isnt that so good. (and i really never use windows explorer and copy somethings with shift, i use totalcommender, but thats my point of view and you have your own workflow, please don’t force other users to use your workflow )

Ok… so you dont care about windows keybindings.
You know that for instance ‘a’ , ‘f’ ,‘1’ and ‘4’ and a lot of other keys are free?
Why don’t you put copy/paste block on to them?
No need for any finger gymnastics then.
Or some other key closer to your little right finger or whatever :)

Come on guys. There are sooo many workarounds you can do here if that alt/shift thing is such a huge problem.
Just do it! Change to something easier if this influence your workflow.

Nobody decided what is better, there were many requests posted in the ideas & suggestions for more keyshort cuts in areas where there weren’t any and this wish is granted but it just costed rearrangement of of keyboard handling structure and unfortunately, the modifyer keys are a core part of it.
I don’t know how hard or easy it can be to add existing hardcoded options to the keyboard preferences but chances are if it would, it would drive you insane to modify back to all the old shortcuts since you have to change the “globals” in every local area to realise these changes.
Most likely there would be no other way to realise global shortcuts anymore and it would break other selection-wise criteria (ctrl-selective sample clicking or range clicking samples etc.)

the only way by which it seems possible to me if by some sort of mad global definition of “selection modifier” variable into Renoise… but this really looks weird to me… :wacko:

taktik already said it would be possible to change but he didn’t see the necessary for it, (i understand the coders view: adding new features is more intresting than change new added features back ^^ ) .
i’l try to change somethin to shift+x,c,v and will test this one week.

but overall its not good to hardbind such important keys like shift and alt.