Being able to see different tracks under the track you’re editing would be great. I’ve always wanted a piano roll that did this with TABS to the left of the keys so you could change the track your editing and the “greyed out” reference tracks.
I’ve only recently registered Renoise - but I have to say that it’s not because it’s a tracker. It’s because I just love the whole UI and setup.
In fact I had never even heard of trackers until about 5 weeks ago, although I’ve been making electronic music for about 15 years now.
Although I have started making some tracks in Renoise 1.8 beta, I do find it limiting in the fact that I’m used to recording a lot of stuff in real-time whether it’s hardware synths/samplers or software. I do of course realise that there are plenty of people out there who have been using trackers for years and it’s what they’re used to and that they produce great music.
I started out using a Korg Workstation which had a base resolution of 96 PPQN (Pulses Per Quarter Note - irrespective of tempo as far as I know), which I guess would translate to 96 ticks per quarter note in Renoise terms. What I know so far with Renoise, however, is that the default speed of 6 ticks per line (or 6 PPQN) at 120 BPM, for example, means that any real-time recording you do with a midi instrument is effectively going to be quantized to one of those ticks, therefore not being very real-time at all.
It seems then, that if I want higher resolution for more accurate real-time recording of midi notes, but want my displayed BPM to remain at 120, then I could set the speed to 1, where each beat would now land on every 32nd line. Doesn’t this mean it only gives an effective increase to 8 ticks per quarter note? (or 8 PPQN) - Plus your tracker is now running at the speed of light!! OMG 
Someone please correct me if I’m wrong about any of this!
Anyhow, the real reason for me saying all this is because I really think Renoise could be my Dream Machine if it had the same real-time midi recording capabilities of other DAW’s.
I’m really hoping that the developers will implement full resolution horizontal midi sequencing as an option for those of us who love the Renoise UI, but want to work with the freedom that this gives. It would truely be my Dream Machine if that was possible. I would prefer not to work in the Vertical Tracking format at all. I find all the dots on the screen are hard on the eyes and seeing all that data! Again though, I do understand that there are others who are very used to it - plus, me not being a developer, I don’t really know the complexities of implementing hi-res sequencing and whether that involves completely reworking the structure due to timing issues and syncing of VSTi’s, FX etc…
Yep - I would prefer horizontal midi sequencing and to just draw in the automation for velocity etc… at the bottom of the screen (like it presently is in the automation screen of Renoise and on other DAWs)
Lastly, I just want to say again that I’m very glad to have discovered Renoise - after downloading trial versions of most of the major DAWs, I think Renoise has such a great way of working. It’s so easy to flip between the different Editor screens that I think in some ways it’s an advantage not having lots of loose windows that can invariably end up sitting on top of each other and with you moving them around all the time. I think it makes it seem more solid and neat in that way, without compromising the workflow.
P.S. I put the tempo to 500 BPM and the speed to 1 and then it really is running at the speed of light - or is it faster? I dunno 
I think it’s fast than his drumming though!
Hey martinal welcome back!
Asked about you here for a while back, got a reply that you were busy studying. How is that going for you?
Over to the topic:
Piano roll has never really … “done” it for me.
So, just one question: Even if/when you do build the piano roll into Renoise, will everything else be exactly like it is now?
I mean, piano roll won’t “take over” for the pattern editor will it?
Woha…Welcome back Martinal!
did I miss something?
Nope. It will just be an option to show the data in the pattern editor in a graphical way.
It’s just like the Automation: Every parameter in the Automation you can also type in the pattern editor, but sometimes it just much better to draw things graphically.
I don’t hear anyone screaming that we should remove the Automation window. But I bet hell would break loose if it was removed.
It’s the same thing with notes really… People just don’t know it yet 
Lets say you have a shaker sample, now a shaker usually have a longer attack that makes you wanna place the notes a few ticks before the line. You might as well wanna use a note-off for this shaker sound so it will end on a line. So you then for instance move all notes in this track a few ticks and then resize all the notes a few ticks etc…
Things like this are done within a few seconds in a PR, while in the pattern editor you might have to do over 100 edits to do the same.
Most ppl doing recordings live with midi keyboard simply can’t live without a PR.
I can go on with lots of other useful things, but it’s all written earlier in this thread.
For many many ppl it’s just so vital that for this reason alone they will never use a tracker.
It’s the single most asked question I get from ppl when I show them Renoise…
They get amazed how simple and good the workflow are, but still very few converts to Renoise mostly because of the missing PR.
I’ve used Renoise a few times. Made some simple stuff with. I like the idea and the potential for a faster work flow.But… I say potential because I feel retarded trying to get used to it. I have to think about every move.
I normally use Logic, Reason and live and I’m in the middle of several projects. I don’t want to drop everything to learn a new app. I have to completely rethink my workflow.
Anyway, my point is if there was a piano roll it might be easier to get into.
I don’t care if it scrolls vertically or horizontally. I just want a quicker way to get use to the pattern editor. After that I prob wouldn’t use the proll much.
Does this make sense or do you think people would still avoid the pattern edit?
Here’s my take on Piano Roll.
Main features:
- Vertical layout, fully integrated into pattern ed
- Each track is switchable between Tracker View and Piano Roll View
- Use View icon in top-right of every track.
- Unintrusive/non-modal – little risk that Piano Roll will “phase out” Tracker View.
While in Piano Roll, column-based tasks become instrument-based tasks
- This means tab cycles through the instruments used in the track (see illustration to comprehend the logic)
- Selecting an instrument not yet used in the track is indicated by a * instead of “play” / “mute” / “off”
- This also means individual instruments can be muted / unmuted within the track
Different instruments are colour-coded
Expands / contracts left/right boundaries automatically to show all octaves of note data
- Could make this optional, since the tiny left/right arrows also provide this functionality
- The point of the tiny left/right arrows is to make space before you draw notes with the mouse.
Entering a chord on the keyboard ENTERS THE CHORD, not several notes in succession (hoorah!)
We got Quantize
We got Move up/down 1 tick
Unillustrated but worthy details:
- Volume is visualized as fading out.
- Drawing a selection can work in 3 ways: select notes touching, select notes fully contained, select all the note that is inside the selection, and none of the note that is outside (you can cut a nice clean square, for example, out of any random pile of notes of varying lengths and start times).
Technical goodness:
- Handles note-offs, notes cutting eachother off, delays, cuts, and retrigs correctly
- Detects when several columns exist just to allow concurrent notes on the same instrument: cleans up any messy columns accordingly. Chords are arranged so that as many notes as possible are same as / similar to the last ones played in those columns
- eg. hitting C maj followed by C maj 1st inversion then C min 1st inversion produces
- C-5 E-5 G-5
- C-6 E-5 G-5
- C-6 D#5 G-5
- See how this makes comparing adjacent chords very easy.
Preserves as much as possible the existing column structure except as above (ie. won’t merge drum columns together if done using seperate instruments).
Track->Instrument mute data saved with song
Switching to Tracker View reverts to column-based mute behaviour but doesn’t lose Track->Instrument mute data
Preserves effect data attached to the duration of every note.
Haven’t worked it out yet:
- Left/right keyboard navigation (what would it do?)
- Drawing notes with the mouse
- Change selection modes
Future additions made easier:
- Mash up beats visually in the pattern ed. Imagine each one of those notes is a vis of the drum loop wave; cut a loop mid-note, paste the piece later; appropriate 09xx commands are put into the Tracker…
- Lasso selection capability actually would be useful at this stage.
Oooh … my mind is racing.
Mind still racing lol 
- Envelope display columns for Automation curves / MIDI CC’s.
- Right-click the view-icon, choose another track to “ghost” its contents behind the current Roll.
- Per-pattern / global vertical zoom
- Offers increased resolution in Piano Roll; and
- Zooming in: expands Tracker rows, converts delays/cuts/retrigs etc. into actual notes as best as possible.
- Zooming out: contracts Tracker rows back into delays/cuts/retrigs etc., inserting columns if/where necessary.
Shorten / lengthen notes by n ticks: great for poppy little basslines 
Pitchbends, vibratos and glissandos visible in Piano Roll (as left/right curvature of the note shape).
Pitchbend/glissando tool: select a (part of a) note: drag some point along that note across the Piano Roll, producing a visible skew or bend. Snapping to halftones is the default behaviour: use Alt to override. If the point being dragged is the beginning or end of the note, allow snapping to temporally adjacent notes.
Sample preview switch for Piano Roll view: put a vis of your instruments’ samples inside every note. Won’t work for MIDI or VST (not without a freeze command, anyway) but will make lyric and drumsync verrrrry pleasurable 
Sample Track: Renoise will offer to let you work in columns as with Tracker View, but with many GUI features from Piano Roll, like mouse operations on notes, sample visualisation inside the notes, tick-resolution positioning / cutting / pasting / erasing / moving … and horizontal zoom to see nice, big chunky waveforms.
OK – I’m getting carried away now. I’ll stop
Looking at the above pics i dont get the point of having both a piano roll view and the pattern view visable at the same time, They show the same information but in a different way. I’d prefer a full size piano roll instead and an easy way of switching between piano roll and pattern view… it’s getting way too cramped fitting both in the same window… and a vertical piano roll seems a bit strange, but maybe cuz i’m not used to it
did martinal actually ever come back?
the way i think of a renoise piano roll now is something like this:
you would have several different kind of tracks:
-audio: for loading/recording samples directly into the piano roll
-pattern sequencing: for laying patters (or pieces of patterns) out.
-midi: midi data
i think in this set up the piano roll would replace the vertical pattern sequencer that is currently being used, though it wouldn’t have to go away entirely, it would mean that you could hop around your pattern stack in a more cut and paste way while adding more layers of programmatic data and (this is the neat bit) playing multiple patterns simultaneously.
sorry i don’t have a neat graphic to illustrate the idea.
i think if there is going to be a piano roll (with labels and all the piano roll trappings) it should be horizontal. i might be reversing myself here, but i’m happy with a vertical tracker and horizontal piano roll. of course, if someone brews up a clever vertical piano roll, i wouldn’t boycott it or anything 
Yeah, we’ve been desensitised to the inherent strangeness of the horizontal piano roll by decades of exposure to inferior software, like Sonar, Logic, Fruity Loops etc 
I’m not sure cramping is a problem, given most of us use 1280x960 or something like that.
To address the other concerns:
- The point of viewing a Piano Roll and Pattern View at once – visual feedback. I might want to make a triplet using delay and cut commands and see the result visually to make sure I got it right.
- Fullsize piano roll is possible thanks to a “maximise trackview” button. Use it on a trackview (group of tracks in a “window”) with just one Piano Roll track in it.
- Easy way to switch Piano / Tracker: View Override button, which sets all tracks in that trackview to Piano Roll View or Tracker View, or reverts to individual track settings.
Improved concept images:
Newly illustrated:
- Trackviews: there is a main trackview (the one we’re all used to) from which new trackviews can be spawned.
- Trackviews can follow the playhead or perform edits independently of the playhead – even on a different pattern. The top-left of each trackview has a settable pattern number.
- A trackview can contain several tracks, each with its own independent view setting of Tracker View / Piano Roll View / Wave View.
- At the top right of each trackview is a View Override button, to set ALL tracks in the view to Tracker or Piano.
- Trackviews are zoomable.
- A trackview can be maximised, e.g. to show many more octaves on a piano roll – or to fill the view with just tracker data like we’re all used to at the moment.
Piano Roll tracks have a toolbar (for mouse-driven operations):
- General Edit Tool: move notes, drag either end of a note to lengthen/shorten all notes selected from that end, select notes (irregular selections OK), use keyboard modifiers in combination with the mouse for more actions.
- Draw Notes Tool: click to use editstep for note length, or drag to set your own note length.
- Draw Silence Tool: like an eraser but erases only the parts of notes the mouse drags over
- Volume Airbrush: drag the ends of notes to ramp the volume at either end, drag any end of a selection to ramp over all notes in it (pitchwise or timewise), or drag from any other point to fade out notes in the surrounding areas
- Pitchbender Tool: drag the ends of notes to pitchbend, or drag some point on the selection to bend from original pitch at beginning of selection, to new (relative) pitch at mouse, back to original pitch at end of selection.
Drag a track out of a trackview:
- Drop it between trackviews to create a new trackview.
- Drop it in another trackview to insert a (visual) copy of it there.
In 3d programs you get a controll gizmo when you select an object. With this gizmo you can pull handles to rotate/scale/move the object etc.
This is acctually something that could be used in a music program when you select notes.
(the gizmo is ofcourse optional)
You could get a gizmo, but instead of the gizmo having handles that scale the object it would scale the volume etc.
This way you allways have the most important operations close to the mousebutton and not up on the toolbar.
I think it would rock if implemented right.
One of the best gizmos in a 3d program I have come across is in Vue désprit. Its definatly worth checking out the demo to see what I mean.
Why not just have it as a automation option so it stays hidden unless called upon so it is not so intrusive, just like filter automation. (note automation). That way our interface stays intact (less work to program) and we arent so distracted by the streaming blocks as apossed to focusing on our cryptic data. Keep renoise as simple as possible.
…on second thought that wouldnt work out to well considering that the automation window isnt expandable, detachable, scale-able. hmmm… more ideas
Another word about “stick-to-pattern-length-only” restriction (yep, I take it as one). Why not to implement the possibility to view much “wider” region of sequenced patterns? For example, we zoom the pianoroll down to, say, 50% and get able to see some previous and some next patterns in dimmed colors (as it comes in pattern editor). Thus we, first, can see the more detailed layout of the composition (or its part) and, second, get another way of quick “between-pattern” navigation by selecting appropriate dimmed pattern block (which automatically becomes the current active one). What about this?
Having a vertical pianoroll would be brilliantly rebellious and while very bizarre to someone like me who is so accustomed to the more traditionally horizontal MIDI sequencers, it really does makes a lot of sense. In fact, it would be ultra-retro going back to the player piano rolls of the early 20th century. It’s simply logical, since we look at the keyboard itself from exactly the same perspective. I think I could get used to it, though it would of course be ideal to offer both orientations as an adjustable option.
Or why not have the option for both…
Horizontal or Vertical…
yes, one of the most stupid things about sequencer pianorolls is the horizontal way, from my (vertical 
) point of view
Both can have their advantages, but I think horizontal is more appropriate.
There is more space in the horizontal view. Also wide screens are more and more common. They might become a standard, like HDTV (which is 16:9).
So you can work with long notes easier if you see them in a horizontal piano roll.
Same thing for the arranger, btw. You don’t want long audio tracks displayed vertically…
Yeah long audio tracks MUST be horizontal.
The thought of vertical make me sick