And yet, the first post states that the piano roll of Renoise can be operated from the keyboard. Did you care to read it before posting?
this is not a piano roll but still nice pattern view…
http://www.aodix.com/images/screenshots/aodix_seq.png
Martin who is doing the work on piano roll is currently not much active i think… Anyway i think/guess it went on hold back then because of technical difficulties in the base code, which needs fundamental changes for a piano roll to work.
Nice one alexander, let’s play poker 
![[screenshot]](http://www.ukpoliticsmisc.org.uk/weblog/images/arse_reading.jpg){kind=link}
Ahaha!
…
No.
That screenshot ekko posted looks good.
[quote name=‘laurencedavies’]
indeed. i like the verticalness of it. the ideal piano roll for renoise would be vertical instead of horizontal like fruity, since trackers are vertical in nature
Piano roll would be cool for chords, but otherwise I don’t have much need for it. Besides that, I have eneryXT for those rare occasions when I actually need it - this program has really good piano roll, which can be fully operated with keyboard and also has step sequencing, like Renoise.
Anyway, it might really be a good idea to make a vertical piano roll for Renoise, maybe even to just have an option to switch tracker view to alternative display, where insted of notes, note-offs and volume, pan and effect numbers we would see vertical lines for notes and dots for effects (like in automation window, when set to “points” display, just vertically). All this could then be dragged and resized with mouse or with keyboard. All those “objects” should be the same size as in tracker view, so no zooming would be needed, and even the track headers could stay the same. Just different display of the same data, like when you turn around device rack in Reason 
I guess this view would be quite similiar to Aodix, except that this one has much higher resolution and weird automation envelopes and a bit clumsy control over it. It should be simpler in Renoise, with no need to even have zoom implemented.
I think piano roll it’s not useless at all, is like we would say that the sampler’s renoise it’s useless becouse everybody use Kontakt sampler, I think piano roll is an extra features and I preffer it exists and the option to use it or not.
In my stupid opinion I think Renoise could be a pro. software if tomorrow add the piano roll option.
I red that there’s others features more important than this to add and I agree on that, but if Renoise add piano rolls sometime, the part of composing will be fully complet.
If you add a piano roll you might as well add a bright pink background while you’re at it…
Piano rolls are hideous…
Agree with the earlier poster who said it’d make Renoise feel ‘bloated’… That’s exactly how it would feel… There are many useful features, such as audio recording, more sample editing functions, mixers, etc… which could be taken care of before these unnecessary vanity projects need get a look in.
It’s a solid fact that some operations is way faster in a tracker pattern editor, such as inputting notes, and using certain effect commands.
It’s also a solid fact that a keyboard controlled piano roll is way faster for other operations, like altering the lenght of a complex group of notes (not just square selections), since the note on, and note off are attached to the same object. Moving notes (or a group of notes) with higher resolution without having to input a note delay command, is also something you do way faster in a piano roll.
Personally I will take adventage of both editing modes. I believe those who are like “omgwtfbbq!!!1!11 a piano roll i renoise? That sucks!” simply don’t have the skill to know when to use which editor.
Remember that a lot of people have kept using FT2 for years, because they don’t want to spend a week learning a new piece of software.
word!
I just dont get ppl complaining that a pianoroll in renoise will ruin Renoise (and the universe).
Fact is that for many many ppl the lack of a graphical view of notes is a major pain in the #%"#&.
Pianoroll is primarily NOT about inserting notes. Its about EDITING notes that are already there.
In a pianoroll you can make a selection of notes according to pitch. You can move,resize quantize copy/paste 10 times faster then in the pattern editor.
In other word a brilliant tool for everyone to use. Even if you just type all your notes in the pattern editor.
Anyway… lets try to keep this thread on topic. Its not about IF the PR should be there or not. Its about HOW it should be implanted.
cheers
I just bought myself two new 20" lcd displays for xmas Both running at 16001200 resolution, and it is just amazing how much space you havet for your applications.
I guess 1024 resolution will be pretty dead in a couple of years.
This made me think that renoise could have a few new opportuneties by beeing able to move different parts of the program in a logic and space-saving way.
So I made a few suggestions how a flexible framed pianoroll could be in 1280* or 1600* resolution.
Most of the time I use a pianoroll to quickly mark a note or a cluster of notes and quantize them (only the start point for the notes) or manually move/resize etc. This can be done so much faster in a pianoroll then in the pattern editor.
But in my skatches the point is to never loose focus on the pattern editor, and at the same time have a pianoroll on the screen. This has the huge advantage of beeing able to have a different zoomlevel in the the two editors at the same time. In many other sequnecers I have to zoom in a lot to adjust the notes, and then zoom out again to do other editings etc. This can of course be useful when you wanna use the entire screen to do some serious editing of only a single track, but this is not a very intuitive way to do a few editings here and there. I think the pattern editor do this in a fantastic good way, to navigate from track to track and quicly punch in new numbers.
Picture 1
Picture 2
Picture 3
Picture 4
In my first picture you see a splitted pianoroll and a splitted automation window in a 1600*1200 resolution.
The automation window and the pianoroll window are synched. (same zoom level).
The small windows to the right are zoomed in windows. Here the cursor is fixed, it is the background that is moving as you navigate in the pattern editor. This make you have a zoomed in view of your cursor all the time.
I have hidden the toolbar for the pianoroll, as I have learned all the hotkeys and dont need unusable buttons and scrollbars to waste space
In many ways I think this method is better then to do everything in the pattern editor itself (if you could zoom in the patterneditor that is, kinda like in aodix. However I would very much like the pattern editor zoom feature, but that has more to do with the fact that you can then type commands in a better resolution, it has not so much with moving the notes around.)
By having seperate windows, you never loose your main focus on the pattern editor that can stay in a normal zoomlevel while you do fine-editing or even macroediting depending of your zoomlevels.
You might very well not need all this information all the time, so a flexible way to move the different windows around would be just great, kinda like adobe audition. And then have hotkeys to save your different workspaces. So by just a press of a key you have different customizable tools at your fingertips.
I see no reason why you should not be able to flip the roll vertically like on my second picture, or put it on the other side of the pattern editor and have an option to synch the zoomlevel to the patten editor as it is in aodix (3th picture in 1280*960 resolution), or hide some windows (4th picture).
The note with the red frame is the note the cursor is on in the patterneditor. The focus is always on the pattern editor, so thus you navigate in the pattern editor to navigate in the piano roll (just like you do with automation now). You should also be able to navigate in the pr itself. by for instance pressing an empty space in the pr will also move the cursor there etc (with or withot a modifier key, or righ/middle click etc… just steal ideas from energyXT or other seqeuncers to get a good multifunction mouse editing tool in the pr ).
You would need options to synch zoom levels, only show notes from the column you are on, or only show selected instrument(s). Or even be able to select several tracks to be shown in the same pianoroll (you kinda group tracks to be shown in a single pr). You can quickly change these behaviours by for instance just setting up different workspaces with different properties for the pr etc)
Of course as many has suggested you could also just have each track switched to many vertical patternrolls (one for each track), but I honestly cant see why you would need that. I think its enough to have the pattern editor for this overall editingview and better have good and precise tools for a single/or a few tracks at a time in a pianoroll view. My opinion might change about this, but this is how I end up doing it in other pr sequencers.
I also dont think this is a substitute for a fullblown fullscreen pianoroll, as this could have a lot more advanced features described earlier in this thread by martinal and others. My suggestion is most of all a usefull tool to quickly do basic note editing without loosing the focus on the pattern editor.
You bastard! 
The pictures look great!
i was working on a remix recently, which involved alot of moving large samples around in renoise and it occurred to me that the proposed piano roll would actually be really useful for working with larger sounds in renoise.
i’m alot less indifferent about this idea now then i was at first. is martinal still around?(sorry i’ve been away for a while)
maybe it’s cuz i’ve been working with the sequencer in live 5 
I imagine though, something could be done like a piano roll for sample offsetting. Say, something like the current view with a note, but with a really fat (wide) rectangle representation of the sample. Adjusting the left edge to offset the start point. I’m probably pushing my luck, but also adjusting the right edge for controling the note cut. Would be great for chopping loops.
I’m down with the sedond pic. This is stil a tracker sequencer guys. keep thing vertically.
I agree with the first picture. The vertical piano-roll just looks awkward. I wonder how many people use it on aodix.
IMO keeping it a tracker is’nt a very good reason to make a piano roll uncomfortable for majority of interested users.
i think at this point, tracks should have assignable colors/ groups so that you can select more than one track to be displayed int he piano roll, for editing/syncing/and song idea/composition purposes, but also be able to tell the difference between notes meant for each track.
for instance, track 1 would be blue and track 2 would be red, therefore 1’s “note bars” would be blue and 2’s bars would be red. youd be able to select any one track to edit at a time, so that you could select a group of one tracks notes without fear of affecting the other notes that might be in the same general vicinity.
does that make sense? this was always my complaint with reason, having to sort of memorize all the different PR’s for each instrument, so that i could edit one without being able to see another. not sure if any other PR’s in other programs use my color idea, but i think its a solid one.
after seeing psyj’s pics, im all about the PR idea.
also… yeah. lets make it vertical. however, why not just make all the frames movable and rearrangeable? i dont understand why everything in renoise is glued to the damn table, so to speak.
I registeres to the forums to post the idea of a piano roll to find that it was already in devenlopment. Wonderful. Since I find renoise very great (and the most valuable point is that it is stable).
For the piano roll id would be nice to have the notes velocity displayed under (like in cubase for example) and be able to modify them on the fly (as well as the volume, panning etc… enveloppes).
Being able to hear the note on click or move or velocity change etc… would be nice.
And being able to display on a same roll different tracks to edit them together would be the cherry on the cake.
Well, I may look like the usual demanding user but well that is all I had to say.
I also prefer the first picture… If you use a vertical piano roll, how could you change efficently the velocity envoloppes etc…?
Renoise is the best tracker out there, so if it could have the features of a traditional midi sequencer also it would blow up anything around ^^
Kudos.