aww someone needs a hug
For those who “prefer it to stay the way it is”, can you show me a video of how you’d do what I did in Buzz?
It seems like some people are getting very defensive about the Pattern Matrix. “You’re probably better off just sticking with Buzz if it’s that much of a problem to copy and paste something.” Well yes, I obviously am - we can’t suggest that the Pattern Matrix doesn’t work very well, can we!
It would be far more helpful if rather than trying to brush it all under the carpet (which seems to me to be what you’re doing), we actually DISCUSSED the various aspects of each method of sequencing, which is what I’m trying to do - which is why I posted up a video to show how quickly I can edit my songs, and without having to learn ridiculous numbers of multiple-key keyboard shortcuts.
I would be VERY interested to know the thinking behind the Pattern Matrix, and why anybody thought it was a good idea, and better than Buzz’s Sequence Editor.
I presume that “this subject has been beaten to death so many times already” means “shut up and stop talking about it, I know the Pattern Matrix isn’t very good, but I’m totally irrational and will defend anything about Renoise, no matter how inconvenient it is”.
Why? I really can’t comprehend the attitude of some people here. It’s a piece of software. It’s not that difficult to change things. We were told that it could never have a Pattern Matrix, that it was impossible, and then out it comes. A Buzz Sequence Editor could be implemented, and would be WAY better than the Pattern Matrix, but because a few people have twisted themselves into knots using the Pattern Matrix, they now refuse to admit they’re wrong, and that it’s VERY inconvenient to use.
If I’m wrong, please post up a video of you using the Pattern Matrix in the same way I use the Sequence Editor in Buzz in my video.
Did any of you actually WATCH my video?
I think you should have said that way back when post #13 was posted…
i can say it when i want. thanks
So here’s a Renoise tutorial I found:
From 37:50 onwards he discusses the Pattern Matrix. (It’s a shame that the song he creates is absolutely dire, this hardly helps to sell Renoise, does it?)
Can you do the first operation, copying the three tracks upwards, with just the keyboard?
The more I look at the Pattern Matrix, the more amazed I am that anybody would go to such effort to create something so unnecessarily complicated, rather than just copy the Buzz Sequence Editor.
So please - upload a video of you using the Pattern Matrix, so I can see how you actually use it. I don’t think it’s possible to write and edit a song anywhere near as easily using the Pattern Matrix, as it is using Buzz, but I really want to be proved wrong, so that I can start using Renoise instead of Buzz.
Can you show me HOW you do it, with a video? I have great difficulty believing that it’s possible.
I don’t understand the hostility towards the use of the mouse, and as I’ve explained previously, you can do everything with the keyboard if you wish. However, it does require thinking in a different way, due to the fact that the Buzz ‘arranger’ and the pattern matrix operate in a different way.
Personally, I find the pattern matrix to work really well.
There is not much discussion occuring in this thread, just a lot of pointless arguing and little constructive criticism. So much that I don’t think this thead can recover now. If you don’t want to learn the keyboard shortcuts, then use the mouse.
Note that “WAY better than the Pattern Matrix” is an opinion and not a fact. I find the pattern matrix convenient, so does that make me wrong? (rhetorical question as I won’t be checking this thread again).
See my previous post, I explained how to force Renoise in the Buzz way of thinking there. The two pieces of software have different approaches and moving from one to another would obviously require some adjustment and relearning.
I think the main objective of the video is to guide people through the main features of Renoise and how they operate, not make the best song in the world.
Yes:
- Select all in pattern (Ctrl-Shft-Up)
- Clone pattern (Ctrl-K)
- Remove patterns from the first copy (Arrows, shift, delete)
Again, this is an opinion of what I assume is a Buzz user of a long period of time, and is not useful feedback. Why is is “so unnecessarily complicated”?
The whole tone of this thread has been that Buzz is ‘superior’ (it’s not, it’s different) and that people need to prove Renoise is better for some reason. I don’t think there has been a constructive comment in the entire thread. Hence the hostility from other users.
Nobody needs to prove anything. If you prefer Buzz, then use Buzz. No-one is forcing you to use Renoise.
I tried.
Does this kid actually make any music, or just complain all day? He obviously has no idea how superior the pattern matrix is for live performance compared to anything Buzz has. I’ve been using Buzz since around 1998 and have absolutely no problem writing songs in Renoise. 
He just likes to spend days demanding from people to explain why this is better than something else he knows instead of spending 10 minutes to learn to use it.
Also the relevance of “Are you American?” argument is simply mind-blowing.
I am trying to force myself not to look into this post but this budding artist definitely has a talent. For trolling.
Dunno what’s wrong with ctrl+drag in pattern matrix or copying and pasting. It’s fast.
It isn’t “hostility” towards using the mouse, but the keyboard is faster, plain and simple.
LOL - “I don’t think this thread can recover now”.
When did I say I DIDN’T want to learn the keyboard shortcuts? That’s precisely what I’ve been asking.
Since nobody can SHOW me how they work with the pattern matrix, yes, I have reason to believe that it isn’t as good as Buzz’s Sequence Editor.
I’m well aware of that.
Never said it wasn’t, just that the song is terrible and may put potential users off.
Thankyou. And you can’t see that the Buzz way of doing things is much easier?
Because you have to either learn lots of keyboard shortcuts, which require multiple keys at the same time, you have to perform FAR more operations to achieve the same result as you would in Buzz, and it’s badly designed from the get go.
I’m still waiting for somebody to watch my video, then show me you doing the same sort of thing in Renoise, and show what keyboard shortcuts you have to use.
No, the tone of this thread was that Buzz’s Sequence Editor is superior to the pattern matrix - which is true. I wasn’t asking people to ‘prove’ Renoise was better, I was asking them to show me how THEY use the pattern matrix to write songs with, and to perform the same operations which I whizzed through in my video, which didn’t require learning any keyboard shortcuts apart from Ctrl+E, to change the endpoint of the loop.
As usual, you ignore everything I’ve written, and set up strawmen.
Seems like SOME Renoise users are stuck in the ‘Renoise is perfect and cannot be improved’ mindset, it’s ridiculous. What is it with people trying to defend the user interface of a piece of software which they use, as if their life depends on it?
You are welcome to criticise the Buzz Sequence Editor, but strangely enough, you won’t find me or anybody else getting paranoid about it in response.
It’s very clear: the Buzz Sequence Editor is THE way to edit in a tracker. Why do you think the Renoise team built the pattern matrix? Because without it, you are forced to copy and paste continuously various tracks into each pattern, all the time, and it makes editing very, very time consuming.
Now, since you think the pattern matrix is just fine, I asked over and over again for somebody to post up an example of editing a song, in the way I did in Buzz, using the pattern matrix in Renoise. Surely you write songs and can do a video capture while doing it? Mine only took me three minutes.
Can you produce a video showing you doing the same things as I did in Buzz? Why is this apparently so difficult, and all we get are people insisting the pattern matrix is wonderful?
I agree that Copy and Pasting is generally fast enough IMO. A few little things that I think would speed up keyboard workflow in the Matrix though.
Currently you can only make broken selection with the mouse (Ctrl+Clicking.) Imagine you have a fairly long song and you’ve decided you want to change alternate (for example) patterns of the hi-hat into Aliases. You could Ctrl+Click on each, hit Ctrl+P and enter the pattern number but this means reaching for the mouse. You can select blocks with Shift+Arrows but not a broken selection (every other pattern.) I’m not 100% sure how I would implement it as you will generally want the arrows on their own to clear selection (current position selected only) so maybe a shortcut to be able to move while not clearing? Unsure…
The being able to drag patterns down to copy them (with or without automation and as either copies or aliases by using modifiers too) is another very useful little function that you can only access with the keyboard too. Never going to be able to give access to all the modes with purely keyboard easily, unless you didn’t use the arrow key as you could assume movement is downwards.
Is that it? Sure there was at least one more little way I could see it improved for purely keyboard… Actually there is one massive gripe for me I’ve mentioned before but not so much about arranging. The fact Esc doesn’t toggle Record Mode when the Matrix has focus but you can still record notes into the Pattern Editor when it does! This has tripped me up far too many times in the past and doesn’t seem logical that Esc doesn’t work there!
Actually, I hated Buzz Sequence editor and it’s way to sequence in general. Everything was torn apart, I was unable to compose anything with it because I didn’t know what was going on inside patterns. I’m not a fan of the pattern matrix either but it gives me some info on song structure which is why it was implemented, I suppose. So saying that Buzz Sequence Editor is “THE way to edit in a tracker” is definitely not true. It may be YOUR way however. I can’t help you with shortcuts and pattern matrix workflow since I’m using it only to have some orientation in song structure.
It’s not our fault you can’t figure out how to use it properly, you’d probably get a better response if you weren’t so immature/arrogant/lazy. You seem to lack the basic understanding that not everyone shares your opinion on the buzz style workflow. This whole argument is pointless, like saying the color red is better than blue.
Thanks for that. I’ll take that as a ‘No’ then. More like a 'No, I can’t show that the pattern matrix is as easy to use as Buzz’s sequence editor, so I’ll call you names rather than prove you wrong…"
“immature/arrogant/lazy” - quite a threesome!
I don’t understand what you mean - how could you not see what was going on inside patterns? Have you not tried Jeskola Pattern XP within Buzz now? It’s a new version of the pattern editor, and you can view all patterns side by side in it, if you wish. (I don’t, so I never use it for that.)
Buzz’s sequence editor gives a much clearer view of the song structure than the pattern matrix - it doesn’t use colour to represent anything, nor a shrunk (and almost useless) view of the pattern, just numbers, or any text that you like.
Anyway - why not have BOTH options. It should be more than easy, once the Buzz sequence editor was implemented in Renoise, to also be able to turn it off, and just use the old pattern sequencer.
======================================================
Anyway - since I’m so ‘arrogant/immature/lazy’, I’ve gone to the huge effort (sarcasm) of transferring part of the song from my original video to Renoise, here:
My first question is - as I’m writing a song, say I write the first track in the pattern, and like it, but want to do a slightly different version of it for the first pattern to be played - how do I duplicate the pattern, and then hide the original? I will want to use it later on in the song.
In Buzz I can produce as many patterns as I like, but don’t have to use any of them. Where do I put the unused patterns in Renoise, without deleting them?
The Renoise Pattern Matrix… Music is notes/sound organized in time.
I like the Renoise Pattern Matrix
I’m only accurately describing a person who thinks it’s okay to insult the devs of Renoise and about 300 million other people. Nobody is going to help you at this point. I can guarantee you’d already be banned from the Buzz forums for pulling this crap there.
Thanks for your brilliant response. 
And you wouldn’t be banned for everything you’ve written in this thread so far? LOL.
What Buzz forums are you referring to? What does “pulling this crap” mean? Asking ‘awkward’ questions, which true believers like you don’t want asked? Nobody would be criticising the Buzz Sequence Editor over on the Buzz forums, and saying that the Renoise pattern matrix is better, would they? I wonder why that is… probably because the pattern matrix is unnecessarily complicated, and doesn’t work as well as the Buzz Sequence Editor…
Perhaps one of you can explain WHY the pattern matrix is BETTER than the Buzz Sequence Editor? No? Of course you can’t - yet you continue to defend it and make out that it IS better, despite providing no evidence.
Who are the 300 million other people, by the way? Oh - the Americans, whose education system is now so dreadful that at least 20% of the ones under 25 now don’t understand the difference between the words ‘that’, ‘than’ and ‘then’. So THAT’S why you’re so hot under the collar! I wasn’t “insulting” ALL Americans, just the ones who are so arrogant/immature/lazy that they can’t be bothered to write their own language so that other people can understand it…
Where did I insult the devs? I said that I can’t understand how the pattern matrix got off the drawing board - are the devs perfect, is everything about Renoise now perfect and doesn’t need improving?
And still you can’t even post up a video, not one of you, showing how you would do the same sort of things as I did in Buzz, in the pattern matrix. Maybe it can be done, without about ten different sets of ludicrously difficult to remember multiple key keyboard shortcuts.
Did you watch my original video? I only need the cursor keys and the number keys. No special, hard to remember, and even harder to press, keyboard shortcuts.
Still, let’s not bother talking about the actual logistics of what we’re trying to do with either program, you’ve obviously got a pattern matrix to defend at any cost! 
Again you seem completely unable to understand that not everyone shares your opinion…some people actually prefer the pattern matrix. Maybe I’ll go to the Cubase forum and suggest they change to vertical scrolling and hex numbers, and then insult everyone for not agreeing with me. I’d probably get about the same response. 
Make sure you have Keep Sequence Sorted unselected! (Not absolutely necessary but helps prevent confusion.)
Open Renoise.
Create your first pattern.
Clone your pattern how ever you find fit (personally setting a shortcut for Clone Pattern from within the Matrix is my preference, it is in the shortcuts list but has nothing set as default.) I like it to be Ctrl+K so it’s the same as in the Sequence and then use Ctrl+Alt+K for Clone Selection as I get confused less.
Change the pattern number of the original pattern by using Ctrl+Right arrow.
All assuming Focus is in Matrix.
Pattern 0 will be hidden BUT IT STILL EXISTS for you to recall later.
If you don’t deselect the Keep Sequence Sorted option (which I believe is on at default install) then the pattern(s) will move to the end. This can make them hard to find and remember which is which later. Hence wanting to disable this feature.
I’m pretty sure there some forum rules somewhere which forbid the writing of hateful or racist comments and that seems to fall under both to me! Especially as the first person you accused of being American was from thousands of miles away with English not his native language as it very clearly stated right next to his name but you were too stupid/lazy to read.
Let me guess… You’re one of these Americans who was failed by the education system you speak of? Well actually I believe you’re not but it is a bit of a case of pot calling the kettle black!
This is the answer you were looking from the outset, why wouldn’t you move on now since you got it?
This guy is amazing, he starts off the thread pulling some stuff from the manual without testing the actual feature, now he does not even bother to do both!