you mean how the notes relate to each other, for example in a-minor scale?
think we mean with that the same as i wrote
a big step at last when i recognize to note notes and whole-tone halftone separate
agree, its a good start point, but i dont think ever
maybe peanut counting, suspect that is somewhat dependent on the situation and sometimes also on the instrument
thnx @Barrett Wang,
spent some time in my youth at protracker and later on an emu-sampler
luckily is that not completely new land
@radian:
Thanks, that is very helpful.
Could you suggest a good book / app / software / website that would help me to understand more about how to deal with these comparatively unusual scales when placing them around the cycle of fifths?
These parts I think understand.
“Start the minor from its 5th and you’re playing phrygian”
If I start the relative minor of C major, which is A minor, ( 1-A, 2-B, 3-C, 4-D, 5-E, 6-F, 7-G ) from its fifth degree ( E ) it is the same as starting C Major ( 1-C, 2-D, 3-E, 4-F, 5-G, 6-A, 7-B ) from its third degree ( E ). The result for both is E Phrygian ( E F G A B C D ). So E phrygian is the third mode of C major. Is it also o.k to say that E phrygian is the fifth mode of A minor?
“Play harmonic minor from its 5th and you’re playing phrygian dominant because the set of intervals you started with was different (harmonic minor has 3 semitones from 6th to 7th) so this phrygian has a major 3rd and minor 7th (like in a dominant 7th chord).”
If my minor is A harmonic minor ( 1-A, 2-B. 3-C, 4-D, 5-E, 6-F, 7-G# ) and I start it from its fifth scale degree (E), then I end up with E phrygian dominant ( E F G# A B C D ). It is phrygian because it starts from the fifth degree of a minor scale ( like the exmaple above ), albeit a minor scale with a slighty different interval structure ( natural minor - W H W W H W W…harmonic minor - W H W W H m3 H ). It is dominant because of the Major 3rd ( 4 semitone jump, E to G# ) and the minor 7th ( 10 semitones jump, E to D ) just as dominant seventh chords such as E7 ( E G# B D ) have a Major 3rd ( 4 semitones, E to G# ) and a minor 7th ( 10 semitones, E to D ).
If I start A harmonic minor from C ( C D E F G# A B ), it should be the relative Major of A harmonic minor.
If it is not harmonic Major, why is that and what is it called instead?
Finally,
Harmonic Minor gives you the chords: i ii° III+ iv V VI vii°
I see that:
The tonic / the 1st chord ( i ) is minor where it would normally be Major ( I ).
The subdominant parallel / the 2nd chord ( ii° ) is diminished where is would usually be minor ( ii ).
The dominant parallel / the 3rd chord ( III+ ) is augmented where it would usually be minor ( iii ).
The subdominant / the 4th chord ( iv ) is minor where it would normally be Major ( IV )
The dominant / the 5th chord ( V ) is Major, this is as usual.
The tonic parallel / the 6th chord ( VI ) is Major where is would usually be minor ( vi ).
and
The incomplete dominant seventh / the 7th chord ( vii° ) is diminished, as usual.
How did you work out this structure?
Sorry for asking so many questions. I’m just thinking about whether I should label the chords in my chord guide in this way or not.
I’m not really sure if all the same names apply ( tonic, subdominant etc.). Do you have any reading materials on this subject you could recommend?
Is it also o.k to say that E phrygian is the fifth mode of A minor?
Yep. Ok, but not a common way to describe it.
If I start A harmonic minor from C ( C D E F G# A B ), it should be the relative Major of A harmonic minor.
If it is not harmonic Major, why is that and what is it called instead?
C D E F G# A B is major scale with raised 5th, I don’t know if there is a specific name for that.
Harmonic major isn’t the relative major of harmonic minor. That’d be too easy.
Just like harmonic minor is an altered minor scale, harmonic major is an altered major scale (with a lowered 6th)
So, C harmonic major would be: C D E F G Ab B
How did you work out this structure?
Well, it just emerges from the scale.
Start on the root (A of A harmonic minor), go up a 3rd in the scale (minor 3rd to c) and another 3rd (major 3rd to e) and that’s A minor.
From B, a minor 3rd up to D, another minor 3rd up to F, that;s Bdim
…etc
I’m not really sure if all the same names apply ( tonic, subdominant etc.). Do you have any reading materials on this subject you could recommend?
Not sure. This answer might depend on where you are? Like I would call the 6th degree’s chord a “submediant” and not a “tonic parallel”.
My main sources of music theory are lessons, but there are two books I find use useful that may or may not be relevant to you; one is a guide to prepare for a UK music exam (so uses British English terms), and the other is for guitarists specifically (but it is not only about theory)
Well when you’re playing in A minor you’re probably not thinking “C major but starting on A” so why do so with the other modes (beyond using that as a starting point to know what notes make up the mode) ?
sry radian,
I misunderstood you 
did not know, see until that time that the minor scales differ as you describe it exactly
therefore, a different approach than major scales need
my last post was stupid humbo jumbo and does there no matter
Thanks for the information and books. That will help me a lot.
I was thinking, there must be some way to work out all possible chords from any scale without a computer.
Maybe drawing a circle with points like a clock, with all twelve notes, highlighting the notes of the chosen scale and then:
1: draw as many triangles between the highlighted notes as is possible
2: draw as many squares ( or four sided shapes anyway) between the highlighted notes as is possible
3: draw as many pentagons (five sided shapes) between the highlighted notes as possible.
( This technique doesn’t work out that well though because I suppose chords can span more than one octave and have up to 10 notes…After getting all those notes, there is the total headache of naming the chords correctly and adjusting the note descriptions to be correct, #s or bs )
Do you know of any better technique?
@random
Every Major scale has a relative minor scale which contains the exact same notes as the Major scale. The minor scales are the same as major scales started from the 6th scale degree. (Cycle of fifths diagram helps).
12 O’clock ( no #s )
C Major : C D E F G A B
A minor : A B C D E F G ( A minor is relative minor of C Major, C Major is relative Major of A minor )
1 O’clock ( 1#, F# )
G Major : G A B C D E F#
E minor : E F# G A B C D ( E minor is relative minor of G Major, G Major is relative Major of E minor )
2 O’clock ( 2#s, F# and C# )
D Major: D E F# G A B C#
B minor: B C# D E F# G A ( B minor is relative minor of D Major, D Major is relative Major of B minor )
3 O’clock ( 3#s, C# F# and G# )
A Major: A B C# D E F# G#
F# minor: F# G# A B C# D E ( F# minor is relative minor of A Major, A Major is relative Major of F# minor )
The whole list ( just scales ) is here : https://forum.renoise.com/t/cycle-of-fifths-scales-with-left-right-fingering/47981
The whole list ( scales and their chords ) is here : https://forum.renoise.com/t/cycle-of-fifths-chords-with-intervals-in-semitones-and-hex/47992
thnx barrett wang,
back to, read some about circle to 5th, your post help me
radian has pointed out that there are several modes in mirror, thought he meant something else
Harmonic minor is not the same as minor, so don’t think of harmonic minor as an altered mode of major scale for a sec.
there is natural minor, harmonic minor, melodic minor and “gipsy” (not sure by translation) minor with different whole step - half step arrangements
would like to write more, unfortunately have just little time
It’s a funny thing, but I’ve never found the circle of fifths particularly useful.
I get that it’s a practical way of quickly determining accidentals, flats and how keys are related to each other. But when it comes to progressions, it doesn’t seem that useful in a modern/non-dated context. The simple theory of oscillating chord progressions is instantly more useful IMHO.
Its true. Choosing any scale, jamming until finding a nice melody, then piling other notes from the scale onto the melody notes to make chords works well. Or the other way round. Any random chords, then choosing a scale to play over each and doing loads of key and scale changes.
Then again, playing chords around the cycle of fifths, even just going clockwise around the circle does sound nice. It is quite ‘churchy’ or ‘pop’ though. Thats why I wanted to know how to throw other scales into cycle of fifths ( other than major and minor )…Havent been able to find instructions anywhere on how it is to be done. Like how do I apply diminished or whole tone and get all the nice chord progressions structure out from those scales? Everywhere I look its just the seven main chords that can be grabbed out from major, then around the wheel. The information about other scales around the cycle of fifths is what I’m searching for. It might just be that I need to flatten and sharpen certain notes all the way round the wheel, or remove notes. It gets complicated and difficult.
There must be some way to really get every possible chord out from any given scale. Everything, all the weird 13’s and #11’s, inversions, everything. It is literally hundreds per scale. But because they work nice with the arp command, with phrases, harmonising a melody with many more choices. They are pieces of melodies or even act as a chord progressions root notes. Speeds things up…The whole songwritng process can be completely systematic and formulaic. A lot of soundtrack and game music composers use that kind of formulaic approach. Its quicker.
maybe a expand circle of fiths (a 8 octave keyboard as circle)
red shows the octave
green shows the quint
blue shows the mathematical difference between octave and quint
after 1 octave humans dont hear (the small) differnece between octave and quint, after 8 octaves we hear the ( bigger) difference
that is why there is a tempered mood (every octave is slightly a little out of tune) we here with tempered no differnce between the 8 octaves
source/link (sadly no english) - the error of pythagoras
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt7Ihzyae6I&t=2508s
this book (free pdf) write about this too: music a mathematical offering - dave benson
I’m just looking for a way to extract all possible chords from any given scale. I think it requires a computer program.
You are writing about the pythagorean comma and the equal temperament tuning system which allows for key changes using only one keyboard or fretboard.
It is quite a subtle difference between ‘just’ and ‘equal’. Basically the chords in ‘equal’ warble slightly a bit like detuning a supersaw. The chords in ‘just’ are completely stable when you see them in lissajous oscilloscope…Its a complete headache to try and understand fully and describe but this video describes it well:
Thanks for that hardcore 500+ page .pdf. It looks great. It will definitely take some time to try and read it and understand it.
I don’t really need to understand everything about the mathematics and physics of harmony and tuning. I’m just looking for a way to compute all possible chords from any scale and a way to use other scales ( other than vanilla major and minor ) around the cycle of fifths.
ts a complete headache to try and understand fully
had occupied me for a long time, as that is exactly
so good as nobody writes, talk about or know it (i asked here too)
it is really easy (know that only since 3 days, the yt link - the error of pythagoras - help me)
1: 2 = octave
2: 3 = quint
they are not compatibel, the bill does not work, not mathematically, graphically or musically (it works there logarithmically - look at the strings at a guitar or inside a piano)
the keyboard is a lie but works self-contained with tempered-tuning and the circle of 5th
think that is a good basis for everything else, understand the mathematically, graphically and musically view, can switch between and build up on that
musically something behaves differently, it requires a trained hearing, recognize the notes chords and scales by listening, need a musical education, i do not have
electronic music often plays with modulation, filter, microtuning and so on, the classical harmonic theory probably does not work there so easily
no limits today but it certainly does not hurt to know the rules (the cultural influence is connected as disharmonious/harmoniously with it) before to break them
THE NEVERENDING STORY
ABOUT
THAT CHORDINVERSION THINGY
Already #bookmarked by Me & checking in&out on a regular
THANKS Y’ALL!
electronic music often plays with modulation, filter, microtuning and so on, the classical harmonic theory probably does not work there so easily
no limits today but it certainly does not hurt to know the rules (the cultural influence is connected as disharmonious/harmoniously with it) before to break them
If using fat, thick, detuned, multiple oscillator, layered sounds the theory about chords and harmony doesn’t really apply as much.
Same goes for weird, metallic FM bell sounds.
The harmony theory is really useful for building things up from single cycle waveform samples though.
My computer is not so powerful and my wallet not so fat and thick with bills, so I’m not a big VSTi user.
I do mostly almost chip things but with VSTi for the bass and breakbeat samples for drums ( single hits layered with free 808 and 909 from magazine cover CD). Its good. I can’t afford big hardware or flashy vintage PSP tube valve warmer stuff but I can do stuff with harmonies, bass and breaks. I’m all about arpeggiators and phrases right now, so for that stuff the harmony is essential knowledge.
If anyone knows a way to get all possible chords + voicings, inversions out from a scale please let me know the technique or computer program yo.
If anyone knows a way to get all possible chords + voicings, inversions out from a scale please let me know the technique or computer program yo.
It only requires a simple brute-force algorithm matching two tables - one table containing the pitch degrees of the scale, and one table containing all chord figures you want to search for in an 047-format. You will have to provide the chord figures yourself. The only thing “complex” about the operation is to use modulo in the correct way, and to search for all rotations (inversions) of the chord figure. Also, you’d want to “compact” the figure beforehand, with a simple modulo operation.
I’ve done it, as can be seen in the chord navigator I scripted. http://forum.renoise.com/index.php/topic/49986-ras-renoise-accompaniment-system/page-3#entry359032
I can give you a Testpad.lua version that will generate a table with all chords in a specified scale/key… I’m pretty sure that the scalefinder tool has the same functionality, so you should be able to rip it from there as well. You’d probably want to provide it with more chord figures, though, but that should be a simple task. https://www.renoise.com/tools/scale-finder
Regarding voicings specifically, it makes no sense. There is a large amount of voicings per chord, as the only thing specific to a voicing is the choice of octave/doublings for each pitch. However, some usable generators can be made for inverting chords and generating some popular/standard voicings, but this territory is a bit more complex and very much to taste. For example, there is no absolute set standard as to exactly what voices that make up an “open voicing”. Furthermore, there is the common drop2 voicing, which is rather an “operation” on a voicing than a specific voicing itself (I believe).
Thanks. These tools look awesome. Inversions, voicings and chord naming seems complicated maybe unnecessary. I prefer ‘semitones up from root note’ style chord description anyway ( 047, 037 etc.).
As for the traditional way of naming chords for instrumentalists I would usually name a chord based on the major scale of its root note as it appears in cycle of 5ths… However, if I have a note in my scale / key signature which differs from cycle of 5ths representation I am unsure how to name the chords with that note as the root.
For example,
A harmonic minor ( A B C D E F G# ) has a G# ( like normal A minor scale but altered ).
G# usually appears in cycle of 5th’s as Ab ( 8 o’clock, 4-b )
In the case of creating a ‘chords from scale’ guide specifically for A harmonic minor, should I name the chords based on root G# as Ab chords or convert everything and describe them as G# chords?
It will require a double sharp or ‘x’. ( the scales book im working from has no # or b in the key sig for A harmonic minor scale in traditional notation, that is, it has key sig of A natural minor with the G# of harmonic minor marked as # every time it appears in the score but not in the key sig )
G-sharp major is a theoretical key based on the musical note G-sharp, consisting of the pitches G♯, A♯, B♯, C♯, D♯, E♯ and F
. Its key signature has six sharps and one double sharp.
If you’re following the CIRCLE of fifths, you’re gonna be out of key pretty soon. You do know that? The CIRCLE of fifths isn’t very helpful in defining a key, as far as I know.
http://www.themusicalear.com/sharps-or-flats-how-to-spell-notes-correctly/
the cicle of fifths is a handy tool to know which keys share common notes ., and how many sharp/flats the kay has
If your moving from key G to D , you are adding 1 sharp .‘C#’
You now have 2 sharps 'f# and g# .
I wouldn’t use the circle as a composition tool
Thanks for the link and all these informative answers. Its a shame I don’t know lua.
I’m building a traditional chords from scales guide just as .txt files for reference.
I know the cycle of fifths is good for determining how many sharps or flats a major or minor scale has. This is the ‘scales only’ version of the cycle.
There is also a version of the cycle that gives a chord for each scale degree (image below). Pretty good as as compositional tool. Its the basis of all classical music. I’m not a big classical fan to be honest but I want to name chords correctly for my guide.
My problem is to do with describing chords from scales other than major or minor.
In cycle of fifths G# would usually be described as Ab, but specifically in the context of A harmonic minor chords from scale guide I guess I should probably name the chords with G# as the root note as ‘G# chords’ rather than ‘Ab chords’ because to get a harmonic minor from normal minor I have to sharpen (G to G#).
A minor ( A B C D E F G )
A harmonic minor ( A B C D E F G# )
Its a problem because the chords should be named according to the notes of the G# major scale (usually Ab Major).
G# Major is a funky and stupid looking major scale with six sharps and one double sharp. Ab Major would be better if only describing the scale ( and not naming chords in the context of A harmonic minor ) as it just has 4 flats, no double flats, nothing weird (Ab Bb C Db Eb F G).
I just wanted to check here if G# or Ab is better for naming G# chords in the context of chords from scale - A harmonic minor…I think I will end up going with G#, but it will be annoying ( six sharps and a double sharp ). Any advice for me?
Sorry I know the classical stuff is unnecessary and boring for renoise (renoise doesnt have diatonic rule or flats).
diatonic rule - for example, you cant have an A and then an A# in one scale. A must progress to B, so it must be described as A then Bb.
You must always go from A to B, B to C etc…the point I’m making is that trackers don’t have this rule. In trackers its always all sharps and chords are described ( as in the arp command ) with number formulas representing semitones up from the root note rather than being described in terms of intervals (based on harmonic series) such as minor 3rd, Major 3rd, Perfect 5th and so on…for example: All Major chords are just 047 chords, all minor chords are just 037 chords, the notes are always written with sharps, never flats.
I just want to get these chords named correctly in context. There are many per scale. I dont want to have to go back and do corrections afterwards, its a big job to get this guide finished. Consider all the other chords for each note in a a scale apart from the main ones:
Even just for the note D (in the context of ‘chords from scale - A harmonic minor’) so far I have these ‘D chords’:
Dmin: D F A
Dm7: D F A C
Dm9: D F A C E
Dm6: D F A B
Dmadd9: D F A E
Dm6add9: D F A B E
D5: D A
Dsus2: D E A
Ddim: D F G#
There are many more than just these to be made and all off them have inversions and voicings…If I get all this information extracted I will be arpeggiator and phrase king. Plus, if I name them in two ways; ‘the renoise way’ (all sharps, no diatonic rule) and the ‘classical way’ I can not only write quickly and accurately but also describe my chord progressions and arps to fancy instrumentalists like ukelele players, guitarists or keyboardists.
Cycle of fifths - chords (mentioned at the beginning):
A harmonic minor ( A B C D E F G# ) has a G# ( like normal A minor scale but altered ).
G# usually appears in cycle of 5th’s as Ab ( 8 o’clock, 4-b )
In the case of creating a ‘chords from scale’ guide specifically for A harmonic minor, should I name the chords based on root G# as Ab chords or convert everything and describe them as G# chords?
In A harmonic minor, the reason it’s G# and not Ab is that you already have an A and you’ll have a more readable score if you have notes on different lines instead of constantly needing accidentals.
I do not understand what you are trying to do with the circle of fifths, but the reason G# is given as Ab on there is the same reason (Ab major is much more readable key sig than G# even though they are the exact same thing described 2 different ways…)
The triad built on the G# in A harmonic minor is G#dim you could call it Abdim, but you wouldn’t want to for the same reason of readability.
Its a problem because the chords should be named according to the notes of the G# major scale (usually Ab Major).
Not if you’re playing in A (harmonic) minor though. I think you are misunderstanding something fundamental, but I’m also not sure what you’re trying to achieve, so I could be wrong.
Edit:
in the context of chords from scale - A harmonic minor…I think I will end up going with G#, but it will be annoying ( six sharps and a double sharp ). Any advice for me?
Like this is just completely wrong.
Whether you call it a flat or a sharp, theres only one black-key note in the scale. So the G#dim chord it gives you (or G#dim7 or how ever many notes you add), you only have the 1 sharp from the scale and certainly no double sharps. (unless you use chords with non-scale tones which is both possible and something what you seem to be trying to build won’t allow for.)
