o.k…so if your saying people are like pentagons because they have 1 head, 2 arms and 2 legs, then what about monkeys? They have a tail too, does that make them hexagons? Humans have a tailbone, why not hexagon?
That stuff is mumbo jumbo
barrett wang
do you have my ? seen
thats old paradigm and standards, they changing from time to time
earth is center of the universe, sun is the center of the universe, current science deals with dark matter but can not prove that it exists … lol
yes its mumbo jumbo, truth exists only in systems created by humans, such as mathetmatic
I know that I exist in some form and perceive, the rest I am no longer sure
It is enough for me if something is conclusive in itself, that can be wrong
many roads lead to rome, if your tailbone a ape and hexagon help you understand music theory then why not?
know no geometric traditions or musical theory to animals, only to elements (a kind of smallest name)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_element
plato, and plotemy (somewhere in tetrabiblos) expanded (too complicated for me) the qualities
example: serpent - fire (power of death) swiftness (air) undulatory motion (water) habit of life (earth)
a another psychologically view: choleric (fire) phlegmatic (water) sanguine (air) melancholic (earth)
but thats very general, in terms of animals I think joules link summary anthropomorphism are more plausible
not so sanity in mythology - what is with abraxas? (a snake with a lion head)
Very good thread & info here!
Thank you very much. 
I understand. Its good that geometric shapes can help people to understand scales, chords and key changes.
It is better to know the music theory inside out and that takes time for anyone to learn of course but there is also something to be said for using ‘lock to scale’ and mashing the keyboard like a drum or just choosing one scale thats nice and ‘drumming’ with only those notes.
The music theory is all about describing notes in chords as if they all came from the major scale of the root note of the chord and had been flattened or sharpened. However if its a one man band type situation, or just a one man production, there is no need to describe the chord that way i guess. Any combination of notes you mash while using the notes of a scale will have some technical chord name.
The reason I was asking about all this classical stuff is because I’m putting together a guide on chords and chord progressions. Also it will be useful for bytebeat and ultra fast arpeggiations using phrases. I just need to stay in key first, then throw in some key changes (transpose) later. Heard a lot of people who used arps that were ill-fitting with the rest of the notes in the tune. Even sound effects and bass drums sound better if they are based on notes that are in key with the tune…thats why I dont like drum machines in which the kickdrum’s tuning knob doesn’t have a tune by semitone option (like ielectribe).
The most important thing for me is to just use chords which contain only the notes from the scale chosen for the song.
After that, when doing chord progressions and key changes using major or minor scales, cycle of fifths is useful.
After that the modes ( starting major scales from a different note ).
Then pentatonic major and minor, then harmonic minor and diminished…
I dont really like the jazzy sounding stuff using lydian flat seven, so I would start learning japanese scales instead after knowing the stuff above only because they sound cool. I usually like to keep things simple…but I’m trying to understand more theory at the moment by putting together a chords and chord progressions guide.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that ‘chords from scale’ is the most important information to have when writing a tune. You can get all the arps and stuff sounding nice easily and quickly without too much time wasting trial and error. Even if you don’t have the ‘chords from scale’ information, any combination of notes (from a chosen scale) played at the same time is a chord…do you need to describe it to someone, some other band member? If not, just try different combos. In that case knowing the notes of scales is most important. Sometimes people dont have time to learn scales… In that case use ‘lock to scale’.
This is my problem with theory at the moment:
Some metal I like uses phrygian mode and harmonic minor a lot which confuses me because they say stuff like this:
“Phrygian dominant is derived from the harmonic minor scale, of which Phrygian dominant is the fifth mode”
Its confusing because ‘minor’ is already a mode (the sixth mode of a major scale)…harmonic minor is that sixth mode altered a bit, so how can these metal guys say phrygian dominant is the fifth mode of a sixth mode altered to be ‘harmonic’. The fifth mode of the altered sixth mode of major. Is that even possible? Maybe they are referring to playing harmonic minor using the fifth scale type / shape on guitar?
I would really like an explanation of how to arrange the chords of the cycle of fifths using another scale other than major.
If I’m choosing harmonic minor how do I get the structure of the chords sorted ( I -tonic, ii - subdominant parallel, iii- dominant parallel, IV - subdominant, V - dominant, vi - tonic parallel, vii - incomplete dominant seventh ). Do I consider the harmonic minor scales as relative minors of harmonic major and so just shift the usual major notes in the scales and chords to fit harmonic major?
I understand. Its good that geometric shapes can help people to understand scales, chords and key changes.
can only write about my experiences, had tinnitus for a few years and use mnemonics as counting sheep 2.0 to be able to fall asleep at night
that’s why me a little familiar with old stuff but of course theres not without pitfalls
if the only tool you have a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail - mark twain
a few years ago, electronic music just got boring, so started to play bass
now i m back ruefully 
would like to produce synthetic drums that sound like a real drummer
have luck, a good guitar teacher but when he speaks about the theory I quite fast.
know now enough to imbrove, but still miss the big one, it’s pieces of the puzzle that come together so little by little
he tell me it need years for the theory but after understanding he was shocked how simple they all is
a big step was at last when i recognized to view notes and whole-tone-halftone separate (don’t see that at a guitar)
got that with the circle explanation, the “accidental” (don’t find a clear translation in english) follow a pattern at the major scale (see plotemy)
now don’t need a circle of fifths to visualize that
not sure yet, but it is probably the same with the other church modes, scales is similar, much is buried in a circle geometrically
I’m not familiar with chords, most of the time the bass just plays the basic note to the chord
find this strange and fascinating:
major chord = 1 prime - 3 tierce (third) - 5 quinte (1-3-5)
minor chord = if the tierce - 3 reduced by only one semitone , you get to the minor chord (1-2-5)
small cause big effect
I guess what I’m trying to say is that ‘chords from scale’ is the most important information to have when writing a tune.
Some metal I like uses phrygian mode and harmonic minor a lot which confuses me because they say stuff like this:
“Phrygian dominant is derived from the harmonic minor scale, of which Phrygian dominant is the fifth mode”
that is very similar to a situations at my class
when my teacher knows the scale of a song, he recognizes the fingering modes octave quinte etc. etc. and can explain it to me
last when we played a wish of mine
easy to see the notes on yt, power chords monoton and simple
but he say: i don’t understand this music because I don’t know their scale, its also with some scandinavian bands they use unknown to me scales
anyway, in any case, thats a very informative interesting post from you, I’ll think about that for a longer time
OK.
You understand how modes of the major scale are created by picking one of the other scale notes as the tonic/root.
So all the modes of a major scale have the same intervals in same order with a different start point.
Start the major from its 3rd, and you’re playing phrygian… and Start the minor from its 5th and you’re also…playing phrygian.
Harmonic minor is not the same as minor, so don’t think of harmonic minor as an altered mode of major scale for a sec.
Play harmonic minor from its 5th and you’re playing phrygian dominant because the set of intervals you started with was different (harmonic minor has 3 semitones from 6th to 7th) so this phrygian has a major 3rd and minor 7th (like in a dominant 7th chord).
Harmonic Minor gives you the chords:
i ii° III+ iv V VI vii°
so like
Am, Bdim, Caug, Dm, E, F, G#dim
Confusingly maybe,harmonic major is not the relative major of harmonic minor (they are not modes of each other).
I find it helps to think of modes as scales in their own right instead of as scale x, but started from note y.
Of course you can also consult an astrologer. 
hey radian,
thanks for your answer 
Harmonic minor is not the same as minor, so don’t think of harmonic minor as an altered mode of major scale for a sec.
Play harmonic minor from its 5th and you’re playing phrygian dominant because the set of intervals you started with was different (harmonic minor has 3 semitones from 6th to 7th) so this phrygian has a major 3rd and minor 7th (like in a dominant 7th chord).Harmonic Minor gives you the chords:
i ii° III+ iv V VI vii°so like
Am, Bdim, Caug, Dm, E, F, G#dimConfusingly maybe,harmonic major is not the relative major of harmonic minor (they are not modes of each other).
there maybe no danger of confusion on a bass guitar because the fingering on major and minor scale is different
http://wemmick.net/dl/BCS.pdf
I would not have noticed the halftone difference between major and minor (see it alone, only as an example) if my teacher had not told me
apart from that, a guitar is a nightmare for music theory, think to wrote this in guitar pro (tux guitar is free) can switch there, view between notes, keyboard and guitar.
I find it helps to think of modes as scales in their own right instead of as scale x, but started from note y.
that confuse me a little can you pls give me a example for dummies
@radian:
[edit]
I had some questions, but made some mistakes.
I’ll post them tomorrow
@random:
For electronic drums that sound like a real drummer use chopped up breaks layered with 808 or 909 ( search 200 breakbeats on the forum). You will have a lot of chopping and layering to do.
Here are some chord formulas that might help you understand chords and arpeggios more easily both in renoise and with bass…
Fretboard note names with octave numbers are here:
(number of semitones up from the root note of the chord )
0 4 7 - Major
0 3 7 - minor
0 5 7 - sus4
0 4 8 - augmented
0 3 6 - diminished
0 3 7 10 - m7
0 4 7 11 - Maj7
0 4 7 9 - 6th
0 4 7 10 - 7th
that confuse me a little can you pls give me a example for dummies
Well when you’re playing in A minor you’re probably not thinking “C major but starting on A” so why do so with the other modes (beyond using that as a starting point to know what notes make up the mode) ?
you mean how the notes relate to each other, for example in a-minor scale?
think we mean with that the same as i wrote
a big step at last when i recognize to note notes and whole-tone halftone separate
agree, its a good start point, but i dont think ever
maybe peanut counting, suspect that is somewhat dependent on the situation and sometimes also on the instrument
thnx @Barrett Wang,
spent some time in my youth at protracker and later on an emu-sampler
luckily is that not completely new land
@radian:
Thanks, that is very helpful.
Could you suggest a good book / app / software / website that would help me to understand more about how to deal with these comparatively unusual scales when placing them around the cycle of fifths?
These parts I think understand.
“Start the minor from its 5th and you’re playing phrygian”
If I start the relative minor of C major, which is A minor, ( 1-A, 2-B, 3-C, 4-D, 5-E, 6-F, 7-G ) from its fifth degree ( E ) it is the same as starting C Major ( 1-C, 2-D, 3-E, 4-F, 5-G, 6-A, 7-B ) from its third degree ( E ). The result for both is E Phrygian ( E F G A B C D ). So E phrygian is the third mode of C major. Is it also o.k to say that E phrygian is the fifth mode of A minor?
“Play harmonic minor from its 5th and you’re playing phrygian dominant because the set of intervals you started with was different (harmonic minor has 3 semitones from 6th to 7th) so this phrygian has a major 3rd and minor 7th (like in a dominant 7th chord).”
If my minor is A harmonic minor ( 1-A, 2-B. 3-C, 4-D, 5-E, 6-F, 7-G# ) and I start it from its fifth scale degree (E), then I end up with E phrygian dominant ( E F G# A B C D ). It is phrygian because it starts from the fifth degree of a minor scale ( like the exmaple above ), albeit a minor scale with a slighty different interval structure ( natural minor - W H W W H W W…harmonic minor - W H W W H m3 H ). It is dominant because of the Major 3rd ( 4 semitone jump, E to G# ) and the minor 7th ( 10 semitones jump, E to D ) just as dominant seventh chords such as E7 ( E G# B D ) have a Major 3rd ( 4 semitones, E to G# ) and a minor 7th ( 10 semitones, E to D ).
If I start A harmonic minor from C ( C D E F G# A B ), it should be the relative Major of A harmonic minor.
If it is not harmonic Major, why is that and what is it called instead?
Finally,
Harmonic Minor gives you the chords: i ii° III+ iv V VI vii°
I see that:
The tonic / the 1st chord ( i ) is minor where it would normally be Major ( I ).
The subdominant parallel / the 2nd chord ( ii° ) is diminished where is would usually be minor ( ii ).
The dominant parallel / the 3rd chord ( III+ ) is augmented where it would usually be minor ( iii ).
The subdominant / the 4th chord ( iv ) is minor where it would normally be Major ( IV )
The dominant / the 5th chord ( V ) is Major, this is as usual.
The tonic parallel / the 6th chord ( VI ) is Major where is would usually be minor ( vi ).
and
The incomplete dominant seventh / the 7th chord ( vii° ) is diminished, as usual.
How did you work out this structure?
Sorry for asking so many questions. I’m just thinking about whether I should label the chords in my chord guide in this way or not.
I’m not really sure if all the same names apply ( tonic, subdominant etc.). Do you have any reading materials on this subject you could recommend?
Is it also o.k to say that E phrygian is the fifth mode of A minor?
Yep. Ok, but not a common way to describe it.
If I start A harmonic minor from C ( C D E F G# A B ), it should be the relative Major of A harmonic minor.
If it is not harmonic Major, why is that and what is it called instead?
C D E F G# A B is major scale with raised 5th, I don’t know if there is a specific name for that.
Harmonic major isn’t the relative major of harmonic minor. That’d be too easy.
Just like harmonic minor is an altered minor scale, harmonic major is an altered major scale (with a lowered 6th)
So, C harmonic major would be: C D E F G Ab B
How did you work out this structure?
Well, it just emerges from the scale.
Start on the root (A of A harmonic minor), go up a 3rd in the scale (minor 3rd to c) and another 3rd (major 3rd to e) and that’s A minor.
From B, a minor 3rd up to D, another minor 3rd up to F, that;s Bdim
…etc
I’m not really sure if all the same names apply ( tonic, subdominant etc.). Do you have any reading materials on this subject you could recommend?
Not sure. This answer might depend on where you are? Like I would call the 6th degree’s chord a “submediant” and not a “tonic parallel”.
My main sources of music theory are lessons, but there are two books I find use useful that may or may not be relevant to you; one is a guide to prepare for a UK music exam (so uses British English terms), and the other is for guitarists specifically (but it is not only about theory)
Well when you’re playing in A minor you’re probably not thinking “C major but starting on A” so why do so with the other modes (beyond using that as a starting point to know what notes make up the mode) ?
sry radian,
I misunderstood you 
did not know, see until that time that the minor scales differ as you describe it exactly
therefore, a different approach than major scales need
my last post was stupid humbo jumbo and does there no matter
Thanks for the information and books. That will help me a lot.
I was thinking, there must be some way to work out all possible chords from any scale without a computer.
Maybe drawing a circle with points like a clock, with all twelve notes, highlighting the notes of the chosen scale and then:
1: draw as many triangles between the highlighted notes as is possible
2: draw as many squares ( or four sided shapes anyway) between the highlighted notes as is possible
3: draw as many pentagons (five sided shapes) between the highlighted notes as possible.
( This technique doesn’t work out that well though because I suppose chords can span more than one octave and have up to 10 notes…After getting all those notes, there is the total headache of naming the chords correctly and adjusting the note descriptions to be correct, #s or bs )
Do you know of any better technique?
@random
Every Major scale has a relative minor scale which contains the exact same notes as the Major scale. The minor scales are the same as major scales started from the 6th scale degree. (Cycle of fifths diagram helps).
12 O’clock ( no #s )
C Major : C D E F G A B
A minor : A B C D E F G ( A minor is relative minor of C Major, C Major is relative Major of A minor )
1 O’clock ( 1#, F# )
G Major : G A B C D E F#
E minor : E F# G A B C D ( E minor is relative minor of G Major, G Major is relative Major of E minor )
2 O’clock ( 2#s, F# and C# )
D Major: D E F# G A B C#
B minor: B C# D E F# G A ( B minor is relative minor of D Major, D Major is relative Major of B minor )
3 O’clock ( 3#s, C# F# and G# )
A Major: A B C# D E F# G#
F# minor: F# G# A B C# D E ( F# minor is relative minor of A Major, A Major is relative Major of F# minor )
The whole list ( just scales ) is here : https://forum.renoise.com/t/cycle-of-fifths-scales-with-left-right-fingering/47981
The whole list ( scales and their chords ) is here : https://forum.renoise.com/t/cycle-of-fifths-chords-with-intervals-in-semitones-and-hex/47992
thnx barrett wang,
back to, read some about circle to 5th, your post help me
radian has pointed out that there are several modes in mirror, thought he meant something else
Harmonic minor is not the same as minor, so don’t think of harmonic minor as an altered mode of major scale for a sec.
there is natural minor, harmonic minor, melodic minor and “gipsy” (not sure by translation) minor with different whole step - half step arrangements
would like to write more, unfortunately have just little time
It’s a funny thing, but I’ve never found the circle of fifths particularly useful.
I get that it’s a practical way of quickly determining accidentals, flats and how keys are related to each other. But when it comes to progressions, it doesn’t seem that useful in a modern/non-dated context. The simple theory of oscillating chord progressions is instantly more useful IMHO.