[Done 2.7] Render To Sample -6Db Solution

[Jalex]

@dblue

I could be mistaken, but I think it has been mentioned before in the past, during one of the many other threads discussing this issue.

I think it could cause even more confusion for users if it was just blindly applied to all situations.

Here’s a quick example: I’m a new user and I want my song to sound a bit louder, so I raise the master volume to +3 dB. I use the render to sample feature to capture something from a pattern I’ve made, and then Renoise automatically sets this new sample to +6.021 dB. When that is combined with my higher master volume, this new sample is now playing louder than the original sample itself. I am now confused as hell and cannot understand why this is happening, even though the new sample looks physically quieter in the sample editor, and I probably completely missed the gain boost in the sample properties since it was applied automatically. Etc.

Anyway… I’ve made my feelings known before regarding this headroom issue. I personally feel that these kind of workarounds and fixes only end up causing more confusion and problems in the end. This problem of “why is my rendered sample so quiet?” is one of the most common recurring posts here on the forum. It is clearly confusing a lot of new users, and even frustrating quite a lot of veteran users who already know about it.

Perhaps it’s time to sit down and re-evaluate the general approach here?

As I’ve said in the past, I think we should stop trying to babysit people here, and let the signal path be truly 1:1 in terms of gain. For better or for worse, users need to understand that if things are too loud then they will clip. We should let the gain be 1:1, and then just set the default master volume to a much lower value to keep things ‘safe’ for new users.

+100000 %

thank you!!!

[loimi]

+1 for dblue’s approach. Current way gets even more cumbersome when lots of stuff needs to be rendered as selections and exported (like in sound design).

[Sound_Compozer]

+100 Coz it’s so confused now. And it’s not so obvious to set Amplify +6.021. And, please - make some dB marks (the top level meter at least), coz now it’s not informative (like Amiga’s Octamed pretty but useless level bars )

[kejkz]

@dblue

As I’ve said in the past, I think we should stop trying to babysit people here, and let the signal path be truly 1:1 in terms of gain.

Yes, please, this is a sane request, because right now I sometimes have problems understanding what is happening when doing mixing… And why does renoise have that -6db rule at first place? I am a relative newbie, so I don’t know how does it have worked before. I know that some applications are using pan law of -3db and -6db, but I have never seen a software that have -6 db gain reduction, this is something new to me…

[dufey]

@dblue

I think you may have misunderstood the original post.

He’s talking about the fact that when you use the render to sample feature, the newly created sample will have a gain reduction of roughly -6.021 dB. This is something that has been discussed and questioned a lot of times in the past (here and here, for example), which I would personally like to see disabled (or at least be optional), but something we just have to live with for the moment.

You can compensate for this reduction by setting Amplify to +6.021 dB in the sample properties of the newly created render, which non-destructively boosts it back up to the level of the original sound.

For example:

Original sample:

After capturing from the pattern using render to sample:

The necessary gain boost to restore the render back to the original level:

Just wanna say it’s great to see someone take their time to explain something so throughly that it’s impossible not to understand
Great effort DBlue!

[gmm04e]

@kejkz

Yes, please, this is a sane request, because right now I sometimes have problems understanding what is happening when doing mixing… And why does renoise have that -6db rule at first place? I am a relative newbie, so I don’t know how does it have worked before. I know that some applications are using pan law of -3db and -6db, but I have never seen a software that have -6 db gain reduction, this is something new to me…

what taktik said

Gain Scheme

Is there available any Renoise gain scheme document to check? if i put -6db sample on the channel i’ll get -12db sample off render it goes thru: Instrument Settings - Sample Properties - Amplify = 0 db Track DSPs - Volume = 0 db Mixer - Master - Pre = 0 db (signal already -12 db) Mixer - Master - Post = 0 db At which point signal is attentuated?

[kejkz]

@gmm04e

what taktik said
http://www.renoise.c…indpost&p=79818

Aha, thank you! Well, when I read it, it looks quite reasonable, I have been used to do gain settings myself… interesting concept for sure.

[CLAPZ]

I have read the comments that explain the behaviour but I have to disagree to the fullest.
the -6db rendering is a disaster .
Should be optional or removed completely.
I have resampled something 3 times and not to have to adjust the mix I had to use 3 gainer dsp’s set to + 6.021 db to get it close to the original mix. It’s stops the workflow.

[cytone]

Is the problem here caused by whatever you select is rendered from the Master Channel, not just a sum of the tracks selected? And why would you want your render to by processed by any inserts on the Master.

[anon79899543]

Absolutely agree to CLAPZ. This thing must be “optional”.

[Jonas (Djeroek)]

@anon79899543

Absolutely agree to CLAPZ. This thing must be “optional”.

[tonschabe (Hypnoid)]

+1 getting rid of that nonsense!

completely impractical for all the reasons folks mentioned. plus i think it’s more confusing than helpful, especially for new users - just doesn’t make sense. and there’s a good chance the routine of increasing the volume again after rendering downgrades the sound: stuff like quantization-noise will increase too, normalizing the sample introduces inter-sample-peaks, …

getting levels straight and understanding dynamics is a lesson every musician/mixer has to learn anyway to get a good sound so why bother with false ‘helping hands’.

and btw, the whole ‘babysitting’-aproach seems to fail imo - pretty much every renoise-vid i’ve seen has the master channel yanked all the way up and is obviously clipping because folks over-compensate the low volumes…

my2cents

[loimi]

+1 for 1:1 gain, exactly like dblue said.

[Nifflas]

Agreed! 0db should be -6db as little as C major should be A major.

[Foo (mr_mark_dollin)]

Another vote for dBlue’s 1:1 idea. It was like this years ago, although I can see this introducing a problem where some people’s songs will clip with the newer implementation. I tend to aim for a -6dB peak in my mixes (or less), so going back to 1:1 would cut it fine in many cases.

[BamBooli]

I am also for the deactivation of the -6DB solution. I think for a “newbie” is the “right” mixing of all sounds one of the first steps. The first terrible mixed tracks are good for learning.

[Tarek-FM]

@tonschabe

+1 getting rid of that nonsense!

getting levels straight and understanding dynamics is a lesson every musician/mixer has to learn anyway to get a good sound so why bother with false ‘helping hands’.

and btw, the whole ‘babysitting’-aproach seems to fail imo - pretty much every renoise-vid i’ve seen has the master channel yanked all the way up and is obviously clipping because folks over-compensate the low volumes…

my2cents

this

@tonschabe

I am also for the deactivation of the -6DB solution. I think for a “newbie” is the “right” mixing of all sounds one of the first steps. The first terrible mixed tracks are good for learning.

this

[Denim]

i agree, not very fond of the -6db approach.

[tris]

not fond of the -6dbv either. 100% with dblue

[Dr_Drips]

Theoretically I’m also in favor of Dblue’s 1:1 idea.
but maybe it’s better to let everybody experience the difference in practice in some next beta.
only the devs know how big the clipping problem is if the tracks are true 0db.
Also brings me to the question how sample players in other DAWs are handled.