Drum Levels - Gain Vs Volume Automation

Help, Support & Bugs Beginners Questions - Renoise
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Hi Renoise users,

I have a question concerning balancing the volume,db, levels, etc. Usually people say that my drums are too loud in the mix. Then it hit me, my drums just sound out of place all together. My hats are very annoying, kick and snare just seems really loud sometimes while. When I hear other professional artist mix it just gels very well. Is there a certain balance I’m missing? Like hats should be lower than kick and kick should be same level as snare?

I read a tutorial from one good artist that he has sub bass at -15 db, kick at -12 db, and hats at -13db, but in renoise that is so low I can barely hear it. Can someone help me out.

Secondly, Should I adjust the DB by using gain or volume. I heard its not good to use the volume knob but I never understood the reason.

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hey marcusg,

i suppose you just have to experiment with these things, doing various rough mixes and checking them on as many monitors as possible (your own, your friends, your mothers kitchen radio, car radios,…) to get a feeling of what works and what not. learning to do good mixes is a long process, took me years to fully understand it. be self-critical about what you did, but don’t expect your mixes to sound 100% like professional releases cos they have almost allways been finalized in a mastering studio, e.g. by someone who has the knowledge, experience, gear and monitoring situation to make the best out of the material.

i wouldn’t suggest using fixed db-values for certain instruments as their volumes heavyly depend on what style of music you make, the sonic character of the instrument (i.e. if it has rather snappy or dull transients) and of course personal taste. one thing you might find useful is to use a vu-meter instead of the normal peak-meter. vu-meters measure the avarage loudness of a signal instead of just showing the transient peaks and thus can give you a better idea of how loud an instrument is. i’m sure you can find a vu-meter vst plugin on the net somewhere for free.

one typical mistake is setting volumes for bass (kick drums ect.) and treble (snares, hihats,…) to high. this is because how the human ear relates to the loudness of these frequencies at certain monitoring levels. usually in homestudios the monitoring level is rather low so you get the feeling the mid-frequencies are too loud (or bass/treble is too low) because it’s the mids that the ear recognizes most at these levels. see fletcher-munson-curve for more explaination on that. if you have a chance, listen to your mixes on high monitoring levels as well (annoy your neibors!!) to get an idea if you set levels right.

regarding your second question, using the volume knob is not good because it affects all the signal processors that follow it. while that doesn’t matter for stuff like eqs, it directly affects all dynamic processors like compressors or gates. these things respond to the input level that you feed them. if you change the input they won’t work correctly any more or you will have to re-adjust their tresholds which is rather pointless as it is unnecessary work. so yes, allways use the gain at the end of the signal chain to set your levels.

i hope i could point you to some things that help you getting better mixes done, but don’t expect that to happen over night, as i said its a long way to go and often frustraiting. keep up the good spirit!

Jan

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informative post tonschabe, thnx!

marcus: maybe it will be easier for you to find the right levels if you send all the drums to a send channel… first you balance them as you see fit in a “drum kit mix” and then, when you listen to all of it at once you only got one knob to control the grouped kit sounds against all the other channels. just a thought.

i’ve read that a lot of people use send channels to gel the drums into more of a unit… applying the same reverb and compressor to the send channel. haven’t tried it myself though.

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Thanks for the response.

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I just wanted to add, whilst I agree with a large portion of tonshcabe’s informative post, I believe this small bit of information may be very helpful.

It is not a commonly held view(maybe out of the box), should you adopt it or at the very least(more likely) be aware that it is possible,you will experience a massive rise in confidence in your ability to produce professional sounding mixes and most importantly, rely on yourself.

I have heard so many in response to questions similar to this, which I have asked as well…“don’t expect your mixes to sound like professional mixes,they get their mixes done by professional so and so, with expensive so and so and” …well you get the drift.

Seriously…like 10s of times I have seen this exact response…uncanny!!

I being hard-headed and implicitly trusting my own opinions on matters, always expect my mixes to sound like pro mixes…wherever the hell they were mastered.

I don’t even use monitors…(yes seriously)…I use free plug-ins exclusively(got my eye a few pay plugs worthy of my arsenal though).

I give a lot of advice but I will not tell you how I do it, as nobody told me how(plus it may not even be productive for you). Its just I had so many people saying you need monitors you need professional mastering…that I was like no f$%^^ off, I can f&ing do anything, and studied the sh&&^ out of pro tracks and figured out how to replicate the formula so to speak…and all the information that helped me do it is freely available or cheaply available…(CM mag and Future Music as well no matter how many may knock it, granted I agree with many sentiments as I don’t buy them anymore)

It was simply obsession that got me there…anyways the other reason I won’t tell you is that I do not recommend my methods to any one other than myself, takes a hard headed individual with absolute faith in himself in spite of popular opinion and evidence…if you can use monitors in a treated room or with good room correction software, do.

Other logistical issues made monitors a no go for me as well…no maybe it was necessity as well that drove me (more than maybe, most likely).

Anyways, the whole point is you get what you expect in life. Actions, manifestations etc…many times follow expectations…ever hear the saying, whether you think you can or you can’t, you’re right?

Well the same applies in music production. I expect my mixes to sound professional and so they do. Whilst many top producers do use mastering houses etc, many do not and sound just as good if not better.

Not even remotely steering you away from these options, I am just telling you don’t underestimate your autonomous abilties. :walkman:

ps:marcus: maybe it will be easier for you to find the right levels if you send all the drums to a send channel… first you balance them as you see fit in a “drum kit mix” and then, when you listen to all of it at once you only got one knob to control the grouped kit sounds against all the other channels. just a thought.

i’ve read that a lot of people use send channels to gel the drums into more of a unit… applying the same reverb and compressor to the send channel. haven’t tried it myself though.

Re: Maes’s suggestions above…I use this technique all the time, however, I process my high end percussion separately and don’t bus them…I do, however, send all of my tracks to a common “room” reverb.

pps…I will give you these hints though in response to your question, as your interests dictate you may be trying to produce DNB…in DNB and Dubstep…the sub is almost always loudest(99% of the time), followed by the snare, then the kick.

Hats, cymbals are quieter (dbwise) than sub,snare and kick…

sometimes the kick is same level as snare…depends on what feel you are going for

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good point tarek! i totally agree on what you say about finding own and unique ways to solve mixing problems, and yes there’s no need to buy expensive gear to do that. i also do my stuff all by myself, in fact i’d only rely on a professional mastering studio if i wanted to do a vinyl release. and even in that case, they can’t just press the magic button to make a crap mix sound pro, so learning how to do a good mix is important anyway.

my point was, for someone who has just started to dip into this subject, it’s completely pointless to compare own mixes to professional ones as this will allways leave you frustrated. it’s one thing to do a mix that sounds good - as you say there’s a lot of info available for free and with just some time, passion and will it’s no big deal to achive that. but to come up with a mix that is more than just good, that in fact is just right, is a whole different story imo. it’s that last f@cking 10% of quality that is the hardest to achive and i still strugle with that now and then.

in the end it all comes down to knowledge and experience. professional mastering folks don’t do great mixes because they have hi-end gear on their hands, but because they know how to use it!

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This is a little off-topic, but lets say I do have a good mix. Would it actually sound better if it was mastered?

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Not off-topic at all!! Its your thread!! :)

Hmmm, interesting question…many say mixing and mastering are distinct processes and I agree with that.

However, I do both at the same time…its part of my technique…the key to understanding the answer to your question is to actually understand what mastering is.

Mastering will not make any mix sound better…yes any mix. It will, however, make your mix translate to a variety of different systems and be in keeping with other tracks in said genre(and also other tracks in an album/ep if that is what one is doing).

So in a way yes, it will make the mix “sound” better in that it will sound good in a variety of different situations. I just think it is important you understand the distinction.

And another way of answering your question, is instead of using the term mastering…before releasing a track into the public domain, you should be certain your track translates whether you do it yourself or get someone else to do it.(in other words you should definitely master your tracks one way or another!)

I basically am sure of this b4 I even arrange!!! (very unusual way of working)

@tonschabe…defo understand where you are coming from, and in that regard good advice!! :walkman:

edit: o yea defo agree about vinyl release point!! That much I do not have the resources to do!

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Disagree with this. Comparing agaist professionally mastered and released records of a similar style and comparing how different elements have been made to gel or fit in together is a good way to help you learn to progress towards it. You may even be able to find the stems of famous songs if you look hard enough (I know enough collegues and universities often seem to use them when teaching music technology type courses) and attempt to do a mix in your own style or as close to the original as possible as a learnign process.

By definition that isn’t Mastering! The process of mixing is very closely related to mastering but at the same time a very different beast. While producing you should try and leave the master channel as dry as possible, maybe towards the end of the mixing process, after real track writing is done, some minor modifications may be done to both at once. But also bear in mind the mastering done for something that is to be released on vinyl is often very different to that which is going to have a digital release.

But it’s very true you could send your mixed material off to ten different mastering houses, receive back ten different masters (and you will hear a difference in many of them) but whether you truely think any of them sound better than what you had done for yourself with a premaster may well be debatable. And at the end of the day it is your material, you’re the one who has to like it, so if you have done enough transferablility tests and feel happy with the results I’m not saying there is anything wrong with doing it yourself.

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I am definitely not going to say you are wrong, however, as I have not explained what I do fully it probably doesn’t make sense…trust me when I say I do both at the same time…and my master channel is soaking wet when I write(i obviously do little re-master adjustements when finished)…as I said…I do it backwards… :lol:

I am not telling anyone to do this, however I am getting very good at my technique… and my upcoming tracks will reflect this even more than my current ones :)

It is a commmonly held view to leave the master channel dry (and a tried and tested one)during the writing and mixing process, however, many if not most producers in my chosen genres do not…however, again, I definitely agree with the vinyl point…

I was quite aware that I may ruffle a few feathers with my points or buck conventional opinion, and this is a perfect example of my point.

My point is not to do what I do, however, to trust yourself and intuition regardless of what others say with however much experience they have :walkman:

ps/edit:Disagree with this. Comparing agaist professionally mastered and released records of a similar style and comparing how different elements have been made to gel or fit in together is a good way to help you learn to progress towards it. You may even be able to find the stems of famous songs if you look hard enough (I know enough collegues and universities often seem to use them when teaching music technology type courses) and attempt to do a mix in your own style or as close to the original as possible as a learnign process.

this is where we agree more…i understand where he is coming from so i didn’t want to push my point further…

However, IMO…it is the only and fastest way to know if you are on track…i personally think it can speed up your learning curve immensely

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Well, IMO, that still isn’t Mastering then!

And then you start to wonder why producers sound go generic with every release sounding so much like the previous :P

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:lol: fair enough!!!

That is something I am aware of which is why I am taking a bit of time with my next track…that to me is more of a creative writing, arranging, sound selection and rhythmic placement issue than a mixing/mastering one!! :)

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i see where you’re coming from, but as i said: from a noobs perspective this might be a step to big. first you gotta learn the basics of mixing, then go on to pro level. step by step and that.

horses of courses… :P

anyway, i’d like to take the opportunity to put up a ‘war plan’ kind of guide of how i approach a mixdown, as this might be helpful for some of the users here. bear in mind everything that follows is completely subjective - it’s MY way of dealing with this, sometimes for good reasons, sometimes just for personal taste… other people may handle things completely different for their good reasons - there’s never just one way of doing something. actually maybe some other users can post info on their approaches towards mixing a track too, so we get a nice little compendium of ideas here.

so here we go:

first and foremost, before i touch anything, i try to workout the priorities of the various instruments in the track. what are the elements that carry and drive the track? the elements that make up the groove? that keep you hanging on? even in a track that contains dozens of instruments there’s always just a handful of elements that do that. so these are the instruments that you have to bring out, that have to be dominant in the mix. everything else is secondary - you can’t bring everything to the top or you’ll get a mix that may be louder than before but still messy, without a point. what elements are of which priority depends on the genre of music you make, the track itself and of course personal taste so i won’t go further into that. you’ll have to find your own way to set these priorities, but this is something you HAVE to do.

so if i got that decided, i do a rough mix of the track using only gain, panning and eq to make the track work according to the priorities i set. i try to avoid using compressors at that point as i like to use them only if i really have to (deeply personal decision ^_^ ). you’d be surprised as to how clear you can make a mix without touching one compressor…

so if i have that working, the next step is to give the track dimension / room / spatial depth. again before i start working on that, i make up a plan where i want every element to sit in this ‘virtual room’. i actually often draw a sketch on paper to have a visual reference to look at when working - like this element is in the front, this is in the middle slightly left, this is in the back right, and so on. you get the picture. elements i earlier decided to be of low priority in the mix i usually shift to the back of this room, behind the important elements.

building this room can be achived by using a combination of various devices/techniques:

  • short delays (just a couple of milliseconds) mixed in using a send device give an element depth without shifting it to the back - i use that on dominant elements mostly
  • reverb of course (who would have thought ;) ). one thing here: the tail of the reverb only defines the sonic character of the room (warm, cold, stoney, wood-like,…). the size of the room and the position of the element inside it is ONLY defined by the predelay-time/itr/early reflections/whatever-it-is-called.
  • rolling off low and high frequencies using a filter or eq makes an element seem to be further in the back
  • the same goes for lowering the gain of an element
  • panning can be useful to find the right position in the mix (switching the master to mono sometimes helps with that)
  • increasing the stereo width of an element (the width slider in Renoise). i try to stay away from this as it causes phase problems, can be useful though. i certainly wouldn’t use it for anything that contains low frequencies.

by then i usually have a solid, working mix so now it’s time to add some punch. so bring on the compressors! i focus on the dominant elements and compress each of them just a little to make them stand out using various compression techniques. other elements i usually don’t compress.

as a last step, i try to gel everything together by taking care of the master channel. using eqs and compressors and maybe a master reverb or a synced delay i slightly blend in (without it being actually hearable - just to make things stick together more).

than i take a nap :D to get my ears free, come back later and re-adjust / finetune everything until i feel it’s right. then i applaud myself (very important!) ;) . done!

i hope reading this was helpful to some of you! have fun mixing your tracks!

PS: completely offtopic now but is there a way i can change my username here without having to re-register? the name’s silly and i can’t even remember why i chose it - must have been stoned. oh well…

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Good post mate, hope some people new to producing find it helpful.

Just start ask one of the Devs to change it, can’t be done by the user. A thread in Off Topic with desired new name is probably easiest ;)

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thanks kazakore! will do that…