Since we’re dividing the topics out. Mainly expanding the samplers capabilities to include granular synthesis for “clicks_n_cuts”, crackles and pops, and clouds of audio.
As a sequencer, Renoise kicks Ableton’s butt. As a sampler, Renoise kicks Ableton’s butt. As a granular synth which is sample-based, Renoise could do this. Renoise truly is a gorgeous sequencer and sampler. It really just needs to be able to granularize samples.
In addition, a means to FM the samples would be desirable. Imagine modulating your samples at audio rates. Heck, we’d have real FM synthesis with a sample as an oscillator.
Please? How many years have I been asking for this - have WE been asking for this?
I agree very much. The modular system in the fx section allows you to make any sound design. But this requires some refinement, in the form of different mixing scenarios (fm, addition, subtraction, etc.). Moreover, within the framework of the existing interface it already looks quite excellent. Such patches would also be great to use together with redux.
I’m open to such things, but the suggestion is rather vague. It’s all about getting something, but not how it could be done.
I know that’s the point of this “ideas & suggestions” forum. The implementation is usually my job, but in general it’s more likely to get an idea implemented by someone else, if you present a more concrete plan and vision instead of just throwing out a vague idea.
Do you guys have any more concrete ideas here? e.g.:
How and where (in the UI) to combine existing samples in Renoise?
How to automate or modulate that?
The same goes for some kind of embedded synth in Renoise. I’ve thought about it a lot in the past years, but I never had a good idea how to integrate such a synth with the rest of Renoise. And with all the gazillion great synth plugins out there, it’s also hard to come up with “the synth” which pleases many. So why should one bother then at all if there’s a plugin for every possible sound out there already?
@taktik Absolutely! I’d be happy to suggest one (possibly the least difficult) addition. FM to the sampler. Not even necessarily harmonic. This comes from my suggestion of ramping the LFO’s modulation speed up into audio frequencies. Both the internal sampler LFO and the LFO Device. An incredible amount of new sounds from this change could be possible. If it isn’t harmonic, it will be more for experimental sounds. If it is harmonic, we’d have a basic 2OP FM - these are beautiful sounds, simple and pleasant. The sample would be one operator, and the LFO could be the second operator.
Or, one sample could be the index, and a second sample could be the harmonics - but that would be a lot of work on your end.
@taktik As for granular/granulation - very rudimentary granulation could come again from the LFO. By providing more LFO options, and ramping up the speed of the LFO, one could create the old-school ‘clicks_n_cuts’ glitch sounds. The LFO would act as a gate. Adding % changes to the peaks of the LFO’s waveform (gate closed is zero, gate open is varying percentages), we’d have dynamics. Adding spacing between the LFO/gate open/close time, and randomness to the open/close time, and size to the open/close time - we’d have a nice clicks and pops generator. It would be basic granular on a single sound source. Making it random per-voice, we’d have a cloud generator. 12 voices should be more than enough to make a nice harmonic cloud.
> One addition would be necessary for an addition to the actual sampler - the capability to make the sampler’s play-head ‘jump’ in either concentrated small amounts or large amounts. To be able to make the playhead move from the beginning to the end in various ways. Paired with an LFO, we’d have all sorts of strange sounds.
Bonus would be the capability to have multiple playheads in the sampler. Paired with the LFO, we’d have polyphony. Maybe could be done with the subtraction of sampler polyphony? More playheads mean less voices.
We don’t need more synths, only additional capabilities to the sampler. Sure, having a new FM synth would be cool, but you’re right - just use a VST. For those of us wanting to keep Renoise lightweight in CPU usage, the sampler is what is key to our success. So many things the sampler could do if a few modifications were made.
I’d love to use Renoise alone to compose my music or make my loops because the sequencer does EVERYTHING I could ever want
The missing sample-granulation (which is a key element in sampler-sounds) keeps me from ditching Ableton entirely.
The *LFO in the track DSP chain and the LFO in the Modulation Sets unfortunately can’t be upgraded to run at sample rate resolutions. They do run at note/event resolution.
The only oscillators which can run in sample rate resolution, are the ones in the RingMod DSP and in the AM Sine/Triangle/Saw/Pulse filters in the modulation sets.
So either those must be changed or some new ones must be added somewhere.
That sounds really neat! If I was a programmer of any sort, I’d help, but I am not - I’m a synthesist/composer. At least some of the work is already done (audio rate modulation). I do hope my specifics are more clear and less general. @taktik, I’m not one to give up, and you’ve asked about it (specifics).
One thing that really has rocked my socks as far as Renoise is concerned is the sequencer. I can make any kind of time-signature I want. I currently work in very odd grids, and it is so satisfying to hear odd patterns looping. You can’t dance to 'em, and that is lovely!
Is it possible to create simple engines in the DSP section without using DC offset (just a wave generator)? The thing is, ADSR doesn’t always work correctly, and there are often clicks and other artifacts. It would also be useful to add a mixing section in the modulation area, where various mixing scenarios between layers could be created (FM/AM/phase distortion).
I have always been for adding a new tab in the sampler rather than upgrading the current tabs with new features.
I would have this section emulate the fx section in appearance as it has been stated before the fx section looks much like a modular synth as it is. Perhaps it could be called OSC
Agreed, there are a few native work arounds and tools to emulate granular, fm, and other forms of synthesis, all using samples as the source. A new tab at least in my thought process would allow the developers to natively implement these processes. Completely relying on samples as the sound sources and still allowing the user to bypass a particular section. The same way a sample could not be assigned to a mod group but go directly to a fx chain and vice versa.
Considering that FM/PM is a result of sound sources affecting one another I’m not sure where in the dsp chain this tab could be inserted. In order to not break the system of sample ->mod->fx. I’ll try to give this more thought but just my 2 cents.
Edit: After giving it more thought. How about an OSC tab modeled directly after the fx tab placed in between the mod and fx chains? This section would still include the native dsp effects as well as the modules needed for samples to interact. This is more of a gui suggestion than anything. One could directly assign a sample to an OSC chain.
Deactivate sends in this section so that everything can continue to flow sample->mod->osc->fx
And with the FX chain being last hopefully this wouldn’t break older xnris.
Not sure how feasible this is, but it would be great to add a resynthesis feature to the sampler, similar to what’s implemented in some plugins.
Such an engine could serve as the basis for granular synthesis and offer an interesting alternative to classic sampling. Or, as mentioned earlier, perhaps a separate tab is needed where users could integrate their own synthesizers via scripts. This could take some workload off the developers. Yes, this topic has been discussed before, but this approach seems like a good compromise.
the fact to add the use granular sythesis like in granulab an old granular sythesis soft could be great , the one of radium tracker is cool be it’s not a plugin its integrated
to radium, i like too the kenaxis software granular synthesis like
@muckleby Additive synthesis is an entirely different for of synthesis- has nothing to do with slicing audio into individual ‘grains’ and rearranging their order, size, pitch, playhead position, etc. That’s why I have asked for a separate topic.
It’s unfortunate that folks confuse the typical use of granular as another form of synthesis. That’s because it is primarily used the same way, as a ‘cloud’ with reverb for ambient music. The original use of it was so much more diverse.
You’re partly right, but this method is appealing because any fragment can be interpreted as a set of harmonics, which might be more effective for creating a granular effect. A regular sample can contain significantly more unpleasant artifacts that sound worse than a resynthesized instrument. For example, this can be seen in the algorithms of instruments from Kyma.
This algorithm is also more versatile for creating morphing effects between multiple sound fragments, as implemented in the VISCO plugin. Here’s an example of morphing, which is also based on resynthesis.
My thoughts don’t reject the original granular instrument but are rather an attempt to build a higher-quality infrastructure where the user can expand the tool to fit their specific needs.
