Groove Question

I don’t understand how and what’s being lengthened. I looked it up in the Help but am still a bit foggy.
I can’t wrap my head around why if I put all settings to the same percentage, I can hear swing (if all notes are lengthened by the same, wouldn’t it go straight again?)
And if i put it all max I can hear a one-two [pause] three-four pattern :wacko:

I have exactly the same problem.
IMO this is a lack of the Renoise Docu, since this is really a thing that should be documented

Hey guys: you’re writing so much stuff here in the forum.
Why not update the docu from time to time ?
Not everybody is a forum geek. E.g. I prefer docs

Best Regards

yeah I found that, but I still can’t understand why when all notes are lengthened by the same, I’m hearing a groove.

Notes that are lengthened take time that would have been used by the next note.

To understand this principle, you need to understand how rows are divided:

Notes are being given a delay on odd rows so that notes on odd rows are being pushed closer to notes on even rows time-wise, this generates the groove.

Suppose each row takes 1 second to play.
If you use groove 50%, Renoise tells each note on the odd row to start a half second later.
Timewise even row notes last 1,5 seconds and odd rows 0,5 seconds. They both occupy 2 seconds but are both differently balanced in that small time-scale.

A simple and easy test to do this manually is to simply fill a whole track with notes, hihat for example and then add a D2 on each odd row in the volume or panning column. (or pick a D4 or a D5 just to toy around with what those values do), then you have a visual example of what groove does and that is i believe the best way to see how it works.
But then this idea is applied on all tracks and subtracks so it saves you a massive amount of typing work.

I can understand the groove when using the manuel delay in the volume column. But when you say use a 50% groove, do you mean that you put all four sliders to 50%. This is the bit that’s confusing me I think.
The 0&1-slider makes the 1st note longe
The 1&2-slider makes the 3rd note longer
I was assuming that 1&2 meant put a slight delay between the 1st & 2nd note. And that 0&1 would put a delay before the 1st note (making the 4th note of the previous bar longer). But this seems incorrect.

Sorry if I’m asking stupid questions :) Also, I’ve noticed that changing the LPB changes the behaviour of the groove. LPB 4 gives you an 8 note loop, and LPB 2 a 4note loop. (BPM 50, LPB 4 sounds different to BPM 100 LPB 2) Why is this?

Thanks for tolerating my ignorance :)

question is not stupid. I was also confused how comes that there is groove if you use the same values for all sliders. Will have a look at the explanations

@Vv: the picture and some explanations are new. Didn’t see them before.
So I wasn’t up to date, sorry.

yeah … I had a look at the documentation and have to say that I’m using Renoise
for a while now and are no bloody beginner.

But exactly those things that pei26 mentions I also don’t understand.
What is meant by 0&1, 1&2, and so on. Ticks ? LBP ? Notes ?
Why 4 ? Why not less/more ?
Why’s that with BPM/LBP

I’d really appreciate some more definitions and explanations.

Okay, spend some time on the mechanism…
The tick story does not make things clearer as it seems unfortunately, it has been used as indication.

Forget about the ticks then let’s just bring in some practical figures:

If the LPB = 4 then:
0&1 -> Balance time between row 0 and 1
1&2 -> Balance time between row 2 and 3
2&3 -> Balance time between row 4 and 5
3&4 -> Balance time between row 6 and 7

If the LPB = 8 then:
0&1 -> Balance time between row 0+1 and 2+3
1&2 -> Balance time between row 4+5 and 6+7
2&3 -> Balance time between row 8+9 and 10+11
3&4 -> Balance time between row 12+13 and 14+15

To make it a regular formula:
0&1 -> Balance time between start and half of the first beat
1&2 -> Balance time between half and end of the first beat
2&3 -> Balance time between start and half of the second beat
3&4 -> Balance time between half and end of the second beat

With the LPB (Lines per beat) you can influence the groove, if you pick strange lpb values like 6, you make things more complicated (a combination of LPB 4 and LPB 8 is being applied).
Picking odd lpb values will be rounded to even lpb handling An LPB of 7 will be treated like the LPB would have been set to 8.

If this makes good sense i will change the documentation and add that.

It’s starting to fall into place :) But why is it called 0&1? I don’t follow how from the regular formula you would get to calling it that, but I understand now what’s going on.

Maybe what’s also confusing is the fact that 0 is the 1st row, whereas usually when counting rhythms I start on the 1. (1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4 not 0-1-2-3-0-1-2-3).

Thanks for taking the time vv
Another thing I find irksome is that clicking on preset 5 gives me a groove of 40% :P

Yeah, well the 0 thing or 00 thing is something coming out of the binary things.
In real life we alway say “everything starts with nothing” so null it is.

If you desire to start from one simply interpret the sliders like:

Also adjusted the image, i noticed it was still saying speed 6 which is not correct anymore (only for old songs).

preset 5 gives 40% and preset 10 gives 90%, there has been made a choice to let either preset 1 sets all sliders to null or 10 to set all sliders to 100%.
Perhaps sticking to preset * 10 was better as you can turn off the groove with a checkbox to instantly have the song play at normal rythm.

First, thank you very much for the explanation. This is much better than the current docu. :)
I think it’s a good idea to update the current docu with the contents of this thread.

That said, I still have some questions:

  1. What if one want to shorten the first half of the first beat = lengthen the second half.
    Do I have to start the whole song at the odd row to achieve this (means one free spacer row at beginning of the song) ?

Does this mean that for time signatures like 6/8 3/4 7/8 and so on and unusual pattern lengths (not divisible by 4) the groove makes no sense ? Means: groove is only good for 4-based time signatures ?

  1. Is there a reason why only first and second beat can be modified ? Why not third and fourth, too ?

Is it really so? LPB 7 sounds different from LPB 8 to me…

The general songspeed is different because it plays less lines per beat (sounds slower) but the relative distance between the notes remain the same.
The swing is divided between an even amount of notes because an even amount of rows are used as a base for the groove routine.