How to make Redux more like Renoise (ReWire)?

Help, Support & Bugs Beginners Questions - Redux
1

I’m using Logic Pro and Redux on OS X, and I’ve finally got some time to test Redux a bit more, and there are some weird workflow issues for me.

1. Why isn’t the Redux window secondary no matter if active or not?

For instance I’m tracking a bass-line and if I want to listen how it sounds in the context, do I really have to click outside Redux [and inside the DAW] and press spacebar each time?

All other plug-ins - even Renoise ReWire - understand that I want to listen to the whole song when I’m pressing the spacebar, but not Redux.

Sure, sometimes one might want to listen to what only Redux does, but all DAWs have SOLO buttons, so… ?

Final thought regarding this would be some kind of option to turn this workflow killer off.

2. Automatic sync like Renoise ReWire?

Well, it’s cool that you can try out some small beats from a pool with the keyboard in the DAW with Redux, but it seems more like a feature than a default behaviour if you ask me.

At least, we who used ReWire, have another kind of workflow. First of all, probably most of the stuff has already been made in the main DAW. Then with ReWire you know that it immediately jumps in the meat of the song, with no hassle or time to waste.

There’s no need of 47 different beats to this particular song with this particular Redux-instrument, but rather the need of adjusting the “Renoisy track” to sit tightly to the already created arrangement in terms of music, sound and rhythm. That’s why point #1 is important as well, I believe.

So, I don’t understand why the ReWire styled behaviour wasn’t considered upon developing Redux. At least it should have been a feature next to the other options of Keymap/Program etc.

3. Start playback from the middle of a phrase?

The phrases doesn’t playback, unless it triggers from the very beginning. This was no problem with ReWire either.

I’ve brought up this one before in this topic and got this answer:

This should be an easy one, I hope it makes it into the first update :slight_smile:

So is it implemented, will be, or what happened?

Various other stuff I miss, that Renoise have/behave:

Record in real-time

Pattern Follow-Indicator

Dependent patterns

Pattern overview
Plug-in Grabber

- - -

I thought Redux was supposed to eliminate the need of Renoise ReWire, but so far I’m not convinced. Redux almost feels like a mixture between Renoise UN-ReWired and a completely other program.

So, until a presumably better future version of Redux I guess ReWire really is the answer. Unfortunately, since that obviously means going back to other kinds of hassles, which I had some expectations to not have to deal with anymore because of Redux.

With all that said, I might just missing some obvious stuff, and I have an open mind.

2

I thought Redux was supposed to eliminate the need of Renoise ReWire, but so far I’m not convinced. Redux almost feels like a mixture between Renoise UN-ReWired and a completely other program.

Wheredid you get that thought from?

It would be more correct to say that Reduxisa small slice of Renoise availableto other hosts than a full Renoise ReWire replacement. More specifically,Renoise’s sampler plus some phrase editingusing tracker alphanumeric realtime sample sequencing and modulations. I think the devs are pretty clear about Redux not beingRenoise as VST or a ReWire substitute.

3

I don’t think redux was thought to be a replacement of renoise rewire at any point, if that would be true we would have something like a vst bridge instead.

4

Wheredid you get that thought from?

It would be more correct to say that Reduxisa small slice of Renoise availableto other hosts than a full Renoise ReWire replacement. More specifically,Renoise’s sampler plus some phrase editingusing tracker alphanumeric realtime sample sequencing and modulations. I think the devs are pretty clear about Redux not beingRenoise as VST or a ReWire substitute.

I don’t think redux was thought to be a replacement of renoise rewire at any point, if that would be true we would have something like a vst bridge instead.

Where did I get that thought from, lol. Yeah, you’re right… Where did I get the Renoise idea from?! How stupid I am… ;)So if not for Renoise, what was Redux supposed to be then? What is Redux supposed to do what Renoise can’t? There’s no plug-in grabber, so it can’t be about samples. It’s pretty useless since you must use Renoise either way.

I don’t understand the need to put Redux inside another DAW, when obviously we’re not supposed to sync it to the DAW in an intuitive way. No real-time editing like I mentioned in #1, just gotta switch windows back and forth a lot! You better guess how the song from the DAW is in your head while editing of course. :badteeth:

A VST/AU bridge would perhaps be interesting as well, yes. If this was made instead, we would have the best of both worlds.

So… Please look at my questions in bold again , as this is a Beginner/Ask questions Forum, and tell me why (at least #1 and #3) isn’t optional, even for a_“absolutely not-Renoise Redux app”_?

5

Rewire has issues, especially with renoise.

Redux is there if the issues of rewire are too much of a hassle and if you already don’t own and/or know how to use renoise.

If you already own and know and happily use renoise in rewire you don’t need to consider redux.

6

Err, maybe offtopic, but isn’t Jack OSX a good replacement for rewire? Bitwig OSX supports it natively…

7

Renoise and Redux’ workflows are different - on purpose. They are using two different approaches:

  • Redux is a plugin, an instrument, so it is mainly driven by something else: the host or a master keyboard (you). It follows the hosts timeline. It can’t tell the host to do something (like (re)start the song, change the tempo) but simply follows it - just like instruments do.
  • Renoise is a sequencer. It drives plugins - dictates timings, organizes things. When run with ReWire it runs side by side with another daw.

Both workflows have their pros and cons. What exactly works for you, is something that only you can decide, cause everyone works differenty.

So yes, main point of Redux is that it’s not like Renoise. Else there would be no point in having it. It’s NOT Renoise as a plugin.
If all that you want is Renoise running next to some other host of your choice, then ReWire still is the way to go, or using other ways of syncing hosts like MIDI clock.

Re Automatic sync:

Because of the reasons mentioned above there is no “sequencer” that you can program in Redux. The host is the sequencer. But there is one little feature that may help you to start working with phrases:
If you enable the small “Sync” button next to the play/stop button in Redux, it will synchronize the currently selected phrase with the hosts timeline. So you don’t need to trigger a phrase by sending a note to Redux from the host and can quickly navigate around in phrases. This can’t replace a sequencer, but is handy to prepare a set of phrases in Redix first. Then, when you are “ready”, you can start triggering phrases from the host, start concentrating on playing the existing phrases (playing the “instrument”) instead of programming them.

Which Renoise 3.1 you can actually also use Renoise to prepare such instruments and phrases. Save them in Renoise, then later on use them in some other host via Redux.

8

Bug report:

Renoise and Redux’ workflows are different - on purpose. They are using two different approaches:

  • Redux is a plugin, an instrument, so it is mainly driven by something else: the host or a master keyboard (you). It follows the hosts timeline. It can’t tell the host to do something (like (re)start the song, change the tempo) but simply follows it - just like instruments do.
  • Renoise is a sequencer. It drives plugins - dictates timings, organizes things. When run with ReWire it runs side by side with another daw.

Both workflows have their pros and cons. What exactly works for you, is something that only you can decide, cause everyone works differenty.

So yes, main point of Redux is that it’s not like Renoise. Else there would be no point in having it. It’s NOT Renoise as a plugin.
If all that you want is Renoise running next to some other host of your choice, then ReWire still is the way to go, or using other ways of syncing hosts like MIDI clock.

Re Automatic sync:

Because of the reasons mentioned above there is no “sequencer” that you can program in Redux. The host is the sequencer. But there is one little feature that may help you to start working with phrases:
If you enable the small “Sync” button next to the play/stop button in Redux, it will synchronize the currently selected phrase with the hosts timeline. So you don’t need to trigger a phrase by sending a note to Redux from the host and can quickly navigate around in phrases. This can’t replace a sequencer, but is handy to prepare a set of phrases in Redix first. Then, when you are “ready”, you can start triggering phrases from the host, start concentrating on playing the existing phrases (playing the “instrument”) instead of programming them.

Which Renoise 3.1 you can actually also use Renoise to prepare such instruments and phrases. Save them in Renoise, then later on use them in some other host via Redux.

:lol:

Renoise, Redux and Redix, family is growing!

A DAW, a plugin and an interactive buttplug. :stuck_out_tongue:

9

Renoise and Redux’ workflows are different - on purpose. They are using two different approaches:

  • Redux is a plugin, an instrument, so it is mainly driven by something else: the host or a master keyboard (you). It follows the hosts timeline. It can’t tell the host to do something (like (re)start the song, change the tempo) but simply follows it - just like instruments do.
  • Renoise is a sequencer. It drives plugins - dictates timings, organizes things. When run with ReWire it runs side by side with another daw.

Both workflows have their pros and cons. What exactly works for you, is something that only you can decide, cause everyone works differenty.

So yes, main point of Redux is that it’s not like Renoise. Else there would be no point in having it. It’s NOT Renoise as a plugin.
If all that you want is Renoise running next to some other host of your choice, then ReWire still is the way to go, or using other ways of syncing hosts like MIDI clock.

Still, Redux affect the transportbar. Like pressing the spacebar still playback when I’m working with other instruments. I think this is what holding me back from Redux mostly. Is there a good reason why Redux works like that, instead of just solo the track in the DAW when you only want to hear what Redux does? Just like you pointed out, it’s only an instrument after all.

I understand on a general note what you’re trying to say, but by not having to start up Logic and Renoise side by side everytime was the real deal for me. I respect the decisions, but I’m just curious… Why wasn’t Renoise as a AU/VST instance (+ the Redux keymap feature etc) considered for the “Redux”? Note that I’m asking out of curiosity, not that I know the best or anything. I’ve just not yet realized what Redux can do more intuitively, than if it had the Renoise layout.

So basically where we (Renoise & Redux users) are now is that we have to think beforehand if Renoise Rewire or Redux will be the solution for a particular project [if Redux really is better at something]? Sometimes you realize along the way that the other alternative was the way to go and you have to save as an .xrni and export/import. (Yeah, I know there are bigger problems in the world but anyway).

Re Automatic sync:

Because of the reasons mentioned above there is no “sequencer” that you can program in Redux. The host is the sequencer. But there is one little feature that may help you to start working with phrases:
If you enable the small “Sync” button next to the play/stop button in Redux, it will synchronize the currently selected phrase with the hosts timeline. So you don’t need to trigger a phrase by sending a note to Redux from the host and can quickly navigate around in phrases. This can’t replace a sequencer, but is handy to prepare a set of phrases in Redix first. Then, when you are “ready”, you can start triggering phrases from the host, start concentrating on playing the existing phrases (playing the “instrument”) instead of programming them.

Which Renoise 3.1 you can actually also use Renoise to prepare such instruments and phrases. Save them in Renoise, then later on use them in some other host via Redux.

OK great, but it’s only the active phrase. Then Redux will be a bit limited of course, and phrases are still a better choice. If it could trigger in the middle of a phrase that would make Redux more useful. A workaround would perhaps be to make a lot of small phrases, but that will limit some stuff like if notes from different phrases belongs together (note glide for instance). Alternatively, an option for dependent phrases which runs through the song, but then again I understand that then Rewire is the way to go.

Maybe I’m just stuck in some kind of old-school thinking. Like I said, I’m open-minded and if someone can point out when Redux is better to use than Rewire I’m all ears.

10

Why wasn’t Renoise as a AU/VST instance (+ the Redux keymap feature etc) considered for the “Redux”?

Maybe I’m just stuck in some kind of old-school thinking. Like I said, I’m open-minded and if someone can point out when Redux is better to use than Rewire I’m all ears.

Why wasn’t Renoise made into a VST/AU-plugin? Probably because such an enterprise requires too much work. Otherwise it would have been done already.

When is Redux better to use than ReWire? When youwant Reduxthe instrument. Building content for Redux will assure that your co-op friends could fire up the phrases and samples in their Reduxes within their preferred DAWs on their preferred OS without any hassles.

11

Still, Redux affect the transportbar. Like pressing the spacebar still playback when I’m working with other instruments. I think this is what holding me back from Redux mostly. Is there a good reason why Redux works like that, instead of just solo the track in the DAW when you only want to hear what Redux does? Just like you pointed out, it’s only an instrument after all.

Reason is a technical one here: Plugins can not request the host to start/stop it - there is no such functionality in the VST or AU protocol. And to be able to edit stuff in Redux (especially the phrase editor), you need keyboard focus in Redux.

Now when the keyboard focus is set to Redux, Redux is bypassing the host’s shortcuts, so you also can’t control the host via shortcuts. It’s either or here - unfortunately.

When you collapse the editor in Redux (when it’s in the “mini” player mode), all keys are handled by the host - always - focused or not.

Maybe I’m just stuck in some kind of old-school thinking. Like I said, I’m open-minded and if someone can point out when Redux is better to use than Rewire I’m all ears.

No one will try to convince you here, but it’s very useful to hear all this feedback from you. It either works for you or it doesn’t. Just like Renoise makes a lot of sense to some, and none at all to most. That’s what you need to try out and decide for yourself.

12

Reason is a technical one here: Plugins can not request the host to start/stop it - there is no such functionality in the VST or AU protocol. And to be able to edit stuff in Redux (especially the phrase editor), you need keyboard focus in Redux.

Now when the keyboard focus is set to Redux, Redux is bypassing the host’s shortcuts, so you also can’t control the host via shortcuts. It’s either or here - unfortunately.

When you collapse the editor in Redux (when it’s in the “mini” player mode), all keys are handled by the host - always - focused or not.

Still, other instruments linked to tracks in the same way doesn’t behave like this, no matter if I’m fiddling with stuff in it or not. Maybe Redux - or any other plug-in - doesn’t need to actually tell something, but rather ignore the spacebar somehow.

So the compact view is different, I guess it is a deliberately chosen feature then.I can respect someone who want Redux to behave exactly like this. Personally I just find it unusual and it hold back a certain flow, and if it was possible to make an option for another “spacebar-behaviour” I would be happy. I’m sure not alone either, but what do I know.

No one will try to convince you here, but it’s very useful to hear all this feedback from you. It either works for you or it doesn’t. Just like Renoise makes a lot of sense to some, and none at all to most. That’s what you need to try out and decide for yourself.

To balance out the criticism a bit, I actually just found out an example when Redux is usable in a way Renoise aren’t (afaik). I’m thinking on the multi-output, for instance if I want a set of drum-samples in Redux to play a certain midi-composition in the DAW. Works great!

13

Redux is an instrument, a sampler, not a replacement for renoise.

It will work in a DAW like other samplers, FXpansion Geist, Xfer Nerve, so on, they both have sequencing ability but rely on the daw to control playback, as will redux.

The purpose i believe in redux is to offer a sampler/sequencer which uses a tracker, like renoise.

Some people like using renoise but can’t fully move across from their traditional daw, so redux is an option for you to use a tracker like renoise has in your traditional setup.

Hope that helps somewhat :slight_smile:

14

I agree with the topic starter. Missing some things.

Like record in realtime

start playback in middle of phrase.

I hope this will come in the next update. I will post some more requests.

15

I agree with the topic starter. Missing some things.

Like record in realtime

start playback in middle of phrase.

I hope this will come in the next update. I will post some more if i requests.

This is weird, I recall this topic today just in my head and decided to check if anyone else had replied in favour of my suggestions. And it seems you did this before today. Crazy but good, thanks! :walkman:

16

start playback in middle of phrase.

Hm, three thoughts come to mind.Not sure which one you refer to

1. Playing (previewing) a phrase while working in the phrase editor

Hum, it was discovered that the shortcut for doing this (Shift + Return) was actually broken. This has been fixed, and will be part of the next release.

2. Triggering a phrase from an arbitrary line

This is what the phrase offset trigger option is for - the key determines what line the phrase will be played from (including autoseeked samples within the phrase)

3. Syncing phrase playback from the host (when starting/stopping playback).

This is more tricky to explain… but basically, this is a limitation of how plugins work and the reason why we have an additional “sync” option for Redux.

The ‘sync’ option will sync Redux playback with the host timeline (much like how arpeggiators, drum machines work). In Renoise it’s technically possible to autoseek the position from the moment the note got triggered, something plugins can’t do. There is no information about_when_a note got triggered, only_that_it got triggered.

17

Right now you can route your daw into Redux and record its output - its the way how to sample the plugin. It is not so fast like plugin grabber but it is more flexible.

I was thinking about another solution:

  1. Redux should have midi output.
  2. You would place one redux before plugins and one redux after plugins. And there would be something like plugin grabber across these two instances of Redux. Smth like … Much powerful than Renoise native grabber :smashed:

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18

ok been working with redux for some time now and i have to say it’s a good beginning. It’s pretty stable and not a lot of bugs. Although sometimes the phrases are not in sync.

Some reccomendation for the next update or maybe sooner.

  1. Record function. This essential for me! Now i keep going back to renoise…

  2. Midi output would be really nice.

  3. Is there a clean up function? I couldn’t find yet. Like in renoise deleted all unused samples.

  4. Multi instrument option. If you slice a beat now and you have samples it’s all gone. Would like to work in one redux if possible. Maybe also better for the cpu

  5. Would be nice to have vst/au support inside redux. Sometimes you want some vst fx in front of your redux fx chain.

  6. Pattern overview would be nice, but i can work with phrases.

So that’s it for now. I do love the way the routing works with fx chains. Very smart and fast!

19

Hm, three thoughts come to mind.Not sure which one you refer to

1. Playing (previewing) a phrase while working in the phrase editor

Hum, it was discovered that the shortcut for doing this (Shift + Return) was actually broken. This has been fixed, and will be part of the next release.

Is it yet ready for release?