Instrument Automation Timing Issues - VST Not Reacting Fast Enough?

[ollam]

Hello!

I’m trying to use instrument automation to recreate Elektron style parameter locks with vsts set up as drum synths.

Currently I’m experimenting with Zebra, I have a patch set up with the XY performance parameters mapped to the instrument automation meta device.

The problem I’m facing is that the switch between one parameter value and the next is not instant and has a “shwoopy” effect for lack of a better term. Currently I’m controlling a filter cutoff and if I have two notes that have the same cutoff value, the first one slides into it during the beginning of the note and the second one comes out the way I actually wanted.

I’ve tried putting the parameter value changes in a different column and setting the delay of each column so that the parameters should theoretically change a little bit ahead of the actual note but to no avail. If I put the parameter change a step early it changes the tail end of the preceding note.

Does anyone have any ideas on how to get around this? I’m not the biggest fan of using static samples for percussion and I’m trying to keep myself in the box. I could just use Logic’s Ultrabeat to get a similar effect but programming drums in Renoise feels a million times better.

Thanks!

[eretsua]

I don’t have Zebra so I can’t test it.

Just to make sure, you’re referring to Zebra’s XY performance parameters, right? Not Renoise’s own Meta Device XY Pad. Correct?

Anyway, have you tried it with another synth yet? If so, does the same swooshing problem occur?

[gentleclockdivider]

I have zebra Hz
1osc into filter , assigned fiter cutoff to Zebra’s X1 field
Automate (zebra’s) X1 from renoise automation device using effects lane , alternating between closed and open filter .
There is indeed a bit of interpolation-smoothing going on .
Then did the same , but automatig filter directly from automation device , same result
Also happens when using diva filters in zebra
I guess this is just the way zebra deals with interpolating between values ( parameters smoothing )

[slujr (•MrZensphere•)]

Would it help to use multiple instances of zebra or would that defeat the purpose? Sounds perhaps like zebra’s filters are not polyphonic, and you’re getting interpolation delay, as suggested by @gentleclockdivider above

[ollam]

Thank you for the responses -

@eretsua Yeah, Zebra’s XY parameters controlled by the meta devices of either instrument automation or instrument midi control, both had interpolation problems.

I tried this a while back with FM8 which I believe had an instantaneous snap to whatever parameter I set it to. However, FM8 doesn’t have the same degree of flexibility when it comes to macro knob style automation. I’ll try this out with a bunch of other soft synths as well as dig around Zebra’s settings to see if I can get snappier interpolation.

@gentleclockdivider thanks for testing it out, the u-he stuff is my favorite, I’ll see if I can find a setting to get rid of some of the interpolation.

@slujr multiple instances would actually entirely solve the problem, and I hadn’t thought about that, thank you! It is a little bit of a work around which I’m not the biggest fan of, but if all else fails it’s probably the best option I have. The polyphony of the filters doesn’t matter too much to me because I’m really just going for single drum hits that should ideally cut each other off, but the interpolation is definitely a problem for me.

I’m going to test things out with some other vsts and u-he synths/settings and see if I can get this working the way I want. Thanks again for the help!

[ollam]

I’ve had a little bit of time to mess around with this - it appears that interpolation or slew is present in varying degrees everywhere. This is a problem when the transient of of the sound matters as much as it does for percussion.

I compared Zebra, Bazille, Hive, and FM8 and found some interesting results. All of the u-he synths have significant slew/interpolation when controlled by the instrument automation meta-device. FM8 has a small amount of said interpolation, but it is still present. This presents more of a clicky sound than a swooshing sound thanks to how quickly the parameter is able to move.

However I did find one thing that worked with the u-he synths is making use of the Control A and B parameters. When controlling these with the Instrument MIDI Control meta-device the synth snapped immediately to the new parameter, no swooshing or clicking at all. Worth noting, the u-he synths have a midi slew control in the settings, I set mine to none but could not hear an audible difference between settings.

Using MIDI CC to control the XY performance joysticks does not work in the same way, interpolation pops up rendering it unusable for this style of programming without using a work around.

I’m out of time to test for today, but TLDR:
Instant parameter changes are possible for u-he synths when programmed with Renoise but certain conditions must be met:
It must be the Instrument MIDI Control device, NOT the instrument automation device.
The MIDI CCs must target whatever the synth is listening to as Control A or B.
It is probably a good idea to turn off midi slew in the synth itself.

From reading the Zebra manual, I’m led to believe that the mod wheel, pitch wheel, and aftertouch might offer instant response too. Obviously pitch and velocity are instant as well and could repurposed as macro parameters for percussion patches, making potentially 7 parameters that are instantly read by the synth.

edit - kept testing a little bit longer on Zebra, I would imagined any findings will apply to other u-he synths.
Pitch bend is not instant, and you can hear a difference between the slew settings.
Mod wheel is instant.
Aftertouch is instant. (Pressure in Renoise)
Mapping CCs through the modulation matrix is instant, but unfortunately I could not find a way to route one of the instant CCs to the value of an XY joystick which is a bummer.

Instant midi in u-he stuff:
Note
Velocity
Aftertouch
Mod Wheel
Control A
Control B