Invisible Filters ?

General Discussion
1

Renoise 1.5 and 1.281 in compare with renoise 1.25-1.261have
additional invisible and don’t adjustment filters and they vastly
worsen high frequencies in the sound. Fact from the years of work
with version 1.281 (which sounds equal with 1.5) - It is impossible
to create normal pro quality arrangement with normal high
frequencies with renoise 1.27 and higher and 1.5 of course…
And from the year 2003 it is the biggest problem of renoise.
With this filters or some strange and very strong bug of the
bad mixing, new versions of renoise is downgraded to
unprofessional soft… Sorry for this public statement, but it
is real problem and my real things. And necessary to remove
this problem from new versions…

P.S. to taktik: I made some tests and can’t find reason of this
problem. If this is real bug and not “feature” you can find it only
yourself.

2

There are no hidden invisible filters.

What are you exactly refering to? Is this just a feeling that the new versions sound worse than the others? Do you have an example? Are you talking about samples only or everything (VST/VSTis) ?

3

Samples or vsti as is can be played absolutely normal, it is something in mixing. And when i use many effects sound is worse. It sence in sound as lower bit calculations or some additional filters (for example declick fades) or as not taken into account inaccuracy of calculations.
I made some tests. For example sample delays of the filters, frequency analisis e.t.c. and can’t find reason of this problem, and i think it’s something in mixing.
About examples, i can send 2-4 small wav files but make module is very hard way (becouse i use very many different plugins). BTW. anyway it sensed in sound with normal accoustic or headphones and normal sound card in all the rns modules which have hard dsp or many channels. I don’t check last, but i think it’s right. Older versions of renoise have more soft and pleasing sound in high frequencies in anyway. :(

4

@EternalEngine

What samplerate & bit depth are you running at?

5

48khz/24bit. But this problem sensed in 48/16 mode too.

6

I did some testing myself today. I’m not really sure if what I found actually means anything yet, as there are so many different factors in what is happening.

But…

In Soundforge I generated a 1khz sinewave tone which was 44.1khz 16bit.

I then loaded the sample into Renoise 1.28 and rendered a “song” which simply replayed this sample at its base note (so the rendered song is essentially identical to the original sample), and then did the same with Renoise 1.5 RC2. I used 44.1khz 16bit Arguru’s perfect sinc when rendering.

I loaded the 3 samples (original, 1.28 render, and 1.5 render) back into Soundforge, and using the Waves PAZ Frequency analyser I analysed each one with the “[Sys] Fastest on your system” preset.

Here are the results:

Original sample:

Render from Renoise 1.28:

Render from Renoise 1.5:

The original sample and 1.28 seem to be identical. I really couldn’t notice any difference in the frequency graph. 1.5 has a VERY slight difference at the far right side of the spectrum, somewhere around 20khz. As you can see from the screenshot it only shows up as 1 pixel tall in the graph, and it is certainly not audible at all when playing back the sample. So, as I said, I am not sure this really amounts to anything, but at least from this basic analysis of the results, there appears to be a very, very slight effect.

I dunno whether this would be more or less noticeable with a different kind of sound test. It is extremely difficult to notice any changes with a more complex sound such as a drumloop or a more detailed synth sound.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Personally, I don’t find this to be a problem at all. I have not experienced any kind of high frequency distortion as you have. If I had not used this frequency analysis I would have honestly never noticed anything at all. I’m not even sure if this very slight difference will affect the overall output.

Also… when rendering at 32bit instead of 16bit from Renoise 1.5, this effect is not visible in the analysis at all. The result is as clean as the original sample. So to me it just seems like some kind of very slight artifact in the 16bit mixing routine?

7

Renoise 1.27,1.28,1.281 and 1.5 Have equal mixing quality. Try to compare with renoise 1.25 or 1.26. And your test is very easy. Try to make many harmonics in test sound and mix a lot of effects for it. May be happened more interesting results.

8

Unfortunately I don’t think I have a version less than 1.28 anymore.

I really think you should perform some similar testing of your own though.

Can you do some frequency analysis on a render from 1.26, and compare it against renders from 1.28 and 1.5?

Any kind of evidence you can provide would help us understand what is happening, and help the devs try to think about the problem (if one exists).

9

Guess that little artifact comes from the dithering. Dithering is a topic on its own: Some hate it, other love it, but thats why its optional in the audio configs.

10

Mixing is quite easy, there is no magic behind it: “Signal1 + Signal2 = Result”.
There is nothing one can do wrong, so this cannot be the problem (well, at least when using real numbers (-> floats) ).

Make sure that you have disabled the dithering, soft clipping and dc filter in the audio configs though. These are the only things that are applied on the final mix (when not using any master effects in the master track of course).

Also make sure that the master out doesnt clip.

If ts just a feeling that it sounds worse, I dont think that we can do anything here. Please try to be more precise.

11

I render two short 32 bit wav files. This is test sequence synthesized with pro-53 and 15 dsp effects, with active usage of send device and send channels. As you can heard Renoise 1.5 vastly worsens sound of it in compare with renoise 1.25.

http://eternalengine.madtracker.net/temp/1…1_5_test111.wav
http://eternalengine.madtracker.net/temp/1…_25_test111.wav

Taktik what you can say about that? It’s no reasons for bugfix? I’m in shock…
:o

12

Yeah you got it: We have set up this bug report forum and answer and mark every single report, just to say that we are right, you are not, this is no bug and we wont fix it.

Ok, it sounds different, now lets try to find out why:

Guess this is from a song in 1.25 that you want to finish in 1.5 and then noticed that it sounds different, right? Its a damn complex song, right? So it could take ages to find out what exactly is different. If you upload the song, we all could help you to find the root of the source, so please do so if somehow possible.

My guess is that an effect simply sounds different, because of either VST import problems or compatibility problems with renoise internal dsp devices. But as I said: lets please find out what exacty is the root of the change, before starting to discuss about jesus and that he doesnt sound good since I missed his last birthday party.

13

Taktik i try to understand your humor and it real funny. But problem is can’t, be terminated be itself if we laugh about it. I can’t give module to forums and can’t give it to anyone because i have some commercial secrets and use very many fetures of VST&VSTi. I think no one in these place don’t have my combination of VST plugs becouse very many VST plugins in the world. But i have experience and can give to you reason for things. This reason is: I work 1 years with Renoise 1.25 and work 1.5 years with Renoise 1.281. In these periods i like sound of renoise 1.25 everytime, and do not like sound of Renoise 1.281 everytime. I like many features of interface in Renoise 1.281 and in Renoise 1.5 but i do not like how they sounds and if you can’t do normal mixing withot bugs i continue my work renoise 1.25. This is not problem for me and thanks for registered version. But this problem is not only my prublem and other users having despaired will be complete normal sound in renoise will be go to other sequensers. To Mad Tracker, Logic Audio, Reason, Fruity Loops becouse they have more good sound and mixing quality permanently. And this is your problem if you want good future for renoise project.
Indeed you don’t need my hard dsp combinations for find bad sound quality in latest versions of Renoise. For this you can try make equal arrangement in several sequensers. For example in MT2 in Renoise 1.25 and in Renoise 1.281-1.5. And compare quality of this arrangement with good sound card and good accoustic or headphones.

14

@EternalEngine
Why do you assume that everyone else have the same problem?
If its so easy for you to prove that 1.5 sound worse then 1.25, then why cant you make a simple module where this error appears?
You are not giving us much info (almost nothing at all) of what you use.
So you used pro53 and 15 dsp’s. What dsp’s?
What if you dont use send channels and only use 1 dsp, or non dsp?

Have you tried it on different setups?

You know… we are trying to help you. Give us some more info please :)

cheers

15

There are a lot of advises you get but you don’t confirm wether you checked them or not…

If you can’t give the RNS that you want to use commercially, then create a new one using the instrument(s) that are sounding different and supply a link.

(you did disabled dithering on the mastertrack configuration though? it’s on by default)

Also, a snippet from the rendering page:

bBeware when using organic or bad shaped samples. They may have a perfect effect during play in the editor, when you use Arguru’s sinc interpolation, the sample may sound very different from the generated wave-file than it does in Renoise! Listen to the two examples.Cubic rendered < vs. > Arguru rendered[/b]
Notice the different sounds between the two mp3-files. Though they use the exact same sample and the exact same bitrate and frequency, the interpolation changes the sample-structure drasticly enough to create these differences. So try cubic interpolation first as well as the current frequency rate your sound-card is currently set to, to play your samples in Renoise before you do any bug-report about this.

16

“@EternalEngine
Why do you assume that everyone else have the same problem?”

Ok, I’m lonely man with course of gods and have bad sound quality and have low speed and have highest memory usage in latest versions of
Renoise. Sounds impossible? I think… And i think all have these problems, but peoples use very small of possibilities in Renoise and many of they don’t have experience or don’t have normal sound on they computers. Becouse tracking is home art for fun as first. But I have experience I have normal accoustic and normal headphones not hi-end but normal anyway. I work with Audigy 2 and Philips SBC-HP840 (frequency range 8-29000hz) I can listen frequency 20000hz and differint in harmonics 1/16 halftone, I’m in the tracking near to 10 years, I finish near to 70 tracks from the year 1996, I win in four serious Tracking compos, and I know all about this f****ing trackers and about professional sound quality and dsp in last 2 years… And i say to you - latest versions of Renoise sounds bad. And it with different degree of the depth it heard in absolutely all RNS modules which i check and write whith use Renoise 1.281 in the last 1.5 years. And Renoise 1.5 sounds equal with Renoise 1.281.

“If its so easy for you to prove that 1.5 sound worse then 1.25, then why cant you make a simple module where this error appears?”

It is not easy. I made many tests and can’t find reason of the problem.
Anyway I think I give enough information to developers.

“You are not giving us much info (almost nothing at all) of what you use.
So you used pro53 and 15 dsp’s. What dsp’s?”

It’s not your business, sorry.

“What if you dont use send channels and only use 1 dsp, or non dsp?”

With different degree of the depth it heard in absolutely all RNS modules.
And with using only samples and native effects too. In more complex dsp it more noticeably. Problem is somthing in calculations and summing of dsp and channels. It sounds near to low quality lowpass filtration.

“Have you tried it on different setups?”

I make very many tests, and already write about this. Sorry if you can’t understand my english. It not so good.

"You know… we are trying to help you. Give us some more info please :)"

I give enough info.

17

@EternalEngine

Would it be possible that you send only me a small fraction of the song? Just what is needed to play back your rendered example. My email adr is taktik @ nameofthistracker . com

I see no other alternative of how we could find out what exactly the problem is.

18

@EternalEngine:

People here are just trying to help, you know? If you don’t want to post the .RNS file in public, then email it to the developers. Nobody is trying to rip you off, or get you in trouble for any plugins/vsts you might have (legally or otherwise). They simply want to help discover exactly what is the cause of your problem. If you don’t help them, they can’t figure out what is happening. If they can’t figure it out, they can’t fix it.

If you want this problem to be fixed, you should try to be more helpful.

19

I have Renoise 1.20 and test it today. It strange, but post in your link is can be true, i don’t test spectrum but play two of Renoise example tunes “Tutorial 4” and “OnMyMind” and i think version 1.20 sounds little more better than version 1.25. It is not so serious as compare versions 1.25 and 1.281, but it can be true. :huh:

20

I make two test modules for all. This modules with one white noise sample, 29 “firium demo” VST plugins loaded and 12 send channels. Firium is professional 50 band grafics equalizer, demo can be downloaded from:
http://www.elementalaudio.com/downloads/index.html
Demo version of this plugin make pauses in sound from time to time. Also you can download from this page free plugin “inspector”. This is nice plugin for measure RMS level of music and view spactral analisis. And distributive of it have “firium demo” plugin.

Test tune playing only noise sound in the ultrahigh frequences over 16khz. And it show some differences in sound playing, in different versions of Renoise.
First test module maded with Renoise 1.25 and in Renoise 1.25 it have little more volume and sounds little more soften than in renoise 1.5.
Second test module have other bpm and speed and maded with renoise 1.20, it have more strange results. In renoise 1.25 and 1.5 it sounds different but very near, in renoise 1.20 it have much more volume in frequencies over 18khz.

Sound in demo versions of renoise can be recorded with “silverspike tapeit” VST plugin. Homepage is: www.silverspike.com

Also i put to the archive exe and ini files of demo versions of renoise 1.20 and 1.25. Password for the archive is “renoisetesting”. URL is:
http://eternalengine.madtracker.net/temp/test2.rar